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Brexit

Westministenders: Transition

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/07/2017 22:02

Last thread opener, it was all about the government buzz word being shown to listen at every opportunity.

Now transition is creeping in as people realise that no we can't just do a settlement, arrange a new trade deal with the EU and have a whole host of other deals in place in two years.

Who'd have thought.

We will be getting Brexit because we give in to threats of terrorism. Not quite getting how that takes back control.

But Brexit will be good. It will be glorious. And in the long term we will be better off for it.

Er ok.

OP posts:
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33
HesterThrale · 14/07/2017 07:13

If only this speech were real...

mobile.twitter.com/hardworkingword/status/884700309817364480

lalalonglegs · 14/07/2017 08:08

The Guardian journalist John Harris (who, to avoid doubt, is very liberal, anti-Brexit and spends a lot of time doing special reports from all corners of England and Wales) has written a piece about why Brexit has to happen.

The only way such delusions will fade is if they are finally tested in the real world and found wanting, whereupon this country may at last be ready to humbly engage with modernity. And in that sense, to paraphrase a faded politician, Brexit probably has to mean Brexit. That may result in a long spell of relative penury, and an atmosphere of recrimination and resentment. By the time everything is resolved a lot of us will either be very old or dead. But that may be the price we have to pay to belatedly put all our imperial baggage in the glass case where it belongs, and to edge our way back into the European family, if they will have us.

I'm hoping this is an expression of exasperation having spent the election campaign visiting some of the most Leave-y areas.

DorothyL · 14/07/2017 08:42

Sorry, de-lurking to say I agree with that completely and have been saying similar to dh.
The upsetting thing about it is how it will ruin our children's future Sad

Gumpendorf · 14/07/2017 08:57

lala SadSad

GreenVelvetandCajmere · 14/07/2017 09:03

Hello, can I join in? Been lurking for a while.

I have this fervent dream oft of late.

The slow-car crash Brexit (can't-bear-to-watch-can't-tear-my-eyes-away) lumbers on and we leave.

The Tories are thoroughly disgraced and shamed due to their evident incompetence during the whole thing.

All British expat pensioners are repatriated and return, as furious remainers, to our shores.

The serried ranks of pissed off and newly empowered young voters continue to grow in number.

Miraculously, somehow the pound stops falling against the euro at a 1:1 ratio, maybe the pound worth a bit less than the euro.

Two or three years after we crash out ignominioisly, there has been both a 20% drop in house prices due to fall in demand and an increase in wages due to restricted supply.

Crisis in teaching numbers forces us to adopt Scandi style schooling- classes from 7 upwards.

We get fed up with kale being the only green vegetable available in winter for at a price less than indenturing your first born child.

At this point, the effects on the NHS are obvious. Not just due to the exit of EU personnel, but also the trepidations of US vulture capitalism as the hastily cobbled together US-UK Trump trade deal makes TTIP look like a teddy bear.

At that point, a coalition of returned pensioners and outraged youngsters demand a referendum on rejoining.

Referendum is a resounding rejoin. Rejoin! Rejoice!

We do so, humbled and more acceptant of the need to put our shoulders to the wheel to do the work of being in Europe. One of the conditions for re-entry is that we join the euro post haste- makes sense now that there is (near) parity. We don't manage to renegotiate any of our previous "special conditions" though.

I am clinging to this slim hope for the sake of my sanity.

RhuBarbarella · 14/07/2017 09:14

www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/41206-misinforming-the-majority-a-deliberate-strategy-of-right-wing-libertarians Very scary article about disinformation and the type of society the right want. It's about the US and the Koch brothers but can easily be transposed on the Rees Mogg Hunt etc Brexiteers.

lalalonglegs · 14/07/2017 09:15

GreenVelvet - all are welcome, no need to ask, come gnash your teeth with the rest of us. I can buy into your theory, similar to John Harris's linked above : in his opinion, it will take decades rather than years to reach that position though. I'm slightly more optimistic that the whole sorry process can be halted in its tracks before that happens- although this is testing my patience to its utmost limits.

frumpety · 14/07/2017 09:27

Bigchoc the emergency customs solution you mentioned up thread , would this potentially make it easier for illegal immigrants to enter the country ? Bit of a massive own goal if it did !

howabout · 14/07/2017 09:29

Interesting wish list Greenvelvet. However I think most of the young would welcome 20% fall in house prices and increasing wages. Expat pensioners who have taken a bath in the Spanish property market would also welcome a fall in UK house prices, unless they are still in the UK property market in which case they would not be impacted.

Not seen an analysis of how the expat community voted in the EU ref but I am sceptical they would be changing in large numbers from Leave to Remain.

Latest Scottish Tory Remain ex politician concern was reported this week as being a fear of falling food prices and more variety post Brexit. There is an argument to be had around how CAP is replaced domestically around protecting producers / food supply independence / countryside management vs benefiting consumers / the wider economy.

Not sure why starting school at 7 would be bad?

On the NHS the real threat appears to be the unwillingness to adequately fund social care leading to massive misallocation of resource to expensive acute care for the ever expanding elderly population. A reality check may well be beneficial.

GreenVelvetandCajmere · 14/07/2017 10:13

Thank you lala. I am hopeful it wouldn't take as long as that- due to demographics really.

I also wish it all falls apart and we beg to stay, but I think that would mean that the same group that has agitated so badly, using misinformation and hyperbole for so long, would continue to agitate. There would be a lot of talk of betrayal and the enemy within kind of thing. That section needs to be, if not humbled then certainly thoroughly discredited if we are going to achieve any kind of stability.

Starting school at 7 would be good howabout.

My general point is that I think, as a country, we could do with, um, revising our opinion of ourselves. And Brexit might manage to do that, if I venture into extreme "every cloud has a silver lining" territory.

I think a 20% drop in house prices and an increase in wages would be welcomed by younger voters howabout. But it wouldn't be enough to put house purchase within reach in many parts of the country, and it certainly wouldn't afford either long-term security or proper freedom to live how you wished (e.g. living/moving abroad easily).

So I think it would be enough to further embolden them, but not enough to make them content with their lot. I think a lot of the awakening of discontent in the young is sown in economic injustice (tuition fees, failing living standards, property prices, erosion of pensions and employment rights).

But I think on Europe it is not just about that or not mainly about that. It is about freedom to live your life as you want, in a real sense (not just illusory consumer choice). It is about a life lived without borders and without judgement, particularly judgement from very much older people who lived and live in a radically different world to people born in the last twenty odd years. It is much more ideological than economic.

It's broader than individually assessed self-interest. I think they have been pushed enough economically, socially and professionally that they have a sense that it's going to take a mass movement of co-operation to change things. They are starting to see themselves as a generation that can change things.

And they are a big generation, numbers wise. They are starting to realise that they will have the clout that the boomers had. That girl in an East London film screening shouting at Rupert Murdoch and Jerry Hall "We're the majority now". They have a growing sense of their own power.

Here is a link to the FT they conducted research which indicated that expats were 72% remain. The global expat network Angloinfo estimated 73% remain and 20% leave. Similar figures in the Standard

This might not match up with analysis of actual expat vote, but only people who were registered in a UK constituency within the previous 15 years were eligible to vote. So who was able to vote and who will be liable to return for economic/social reasons will overlap but not be co-extensive.

Also think that a proper bath in the Spanish property market (especially given some of the issues around land title and also ownership of property by non-EU nationals close to military bases) will far outweigh a drop in UK house prices, unless the UK market drops by half or more, which is I think unlikely outside London.

Even if there is some kind of reciprocal deal EU/UK nationals staying, for many of them, a 20-30% drop in the value of the pound is going to have an effect on their quality of living due to some pensions being paid in pounds and transferred. There is also the question of whether state pension transference would be protected in the deal. That's a treaty right. As is using the health service abroad. And people won't be able to ask for EU citizenship based on residency but fly back to use the NHS anymore. So that might mean learning e.g. Spanish or paying for an interpreter at the very least.

Outside the financial or health reasons, I think a few British winters would be the coup de grace for some of the 20% expat leavers.

PattyPenguin · 14/07/2017 10:22

In answer to your question, frumpety....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40585934

"Border security weaknesses have been identified at all sea ports on the east coast of England and Scotland.
The Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration said half of the small ports, marinas and wharfs had not been visited by the Border Force for more than a year, and reported a shortage of staff able to use specialist scanners.
Staff at Gatwick airport were also said to be under "considerable strain".
A Home Office spokesman said it accepted improvements could be made.
Chief Inspector David Bolt's report also revealed that the number of clandestine migrants detected at the ports had almost doubled in the 12 months between 2014-15 and 2015-16, rising from 233 to 423."

That's now, before any extra strain is put on the system by any customs checks after Brexit.

HashiAsLarry · 14/07/2017 10:24

A 20% drop in house values and an increase in wages wouldn't mitigate the damage to household income caused by delaying school entry until 7. Slightly more affordable houses mean nothing when you may be forced onto one income for another 2-3 years. Unless housebuying is still to remain mainly the purview of the rich or people who don't want families.

Lico · 14/07/2017 10:29

Totally agree with the article. Most Euroean countries had an Empire at some stage in their history..but do not suffer from this 'puffed up interpretation of their past'

LurkingHusband · 14/07/2017 10:57

Brexit and ... smoking ?

(bear with me)

I appreciate the TAAT taboo, but a recent busy thread in AIBU makes fascinating reading ... not necessarily because of the subject matter (smokers smoking outdoors). But more because of the dynamic interplay of peoples opinions.

Given that we know the proportion of smokers to non-smokers is about 1:5.x (in plain English for every smoker there are five non smokers) then it's wondrous the spirited arguments the minority are putting up (dare I say "inventing") to justify their minority position.

OK, nothing directly about Brexit. But as a way to watch very asymmetric arguments played out, it's a researchers dream.

The reason it caught my eye, is some of the martial-arts-moves exhibited seem very similar to ones I read in Brexit/Remainer discussions. Although (thus far) I haven't yet seen a non-smoker whip out the "will of the people" joker ?

As you were Smile

Artisanjam · 14/07/2017 11:24

I agree with the John Harris article too. I wish I didn't.

I'll go back to stockpiling...!

LurkingHusband · 14/07/2017 12:00

Most Euroean countries had an Empire at some stage in their history..but do not suffer from this 'puffed up interpretation of their past'

However, the counter to that, is there was no pax Gallico, or pax Germania, or pax Hispania, 1763?-1914?

For better (or as it seems in this case Sad) for worse, the British Empire is simply without compare.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/07/2017 12:43

Richard North's prediction of "hard" Brexit causing major decline is frankly terrifying Sad

I do hope he is wrong.

Remember, he is a longterm Leaver,
but wanted to do so in a way that doesn't hammer ordinary people for years,
i.e. some form of EEA / EFTA at least as a transition stage until the last 40+ years can be carefully unpicked

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=865366** *

Unlike virtually anyone else in the world, though, Davis believes the "technicalities" of negotiating a free trade deal can be completed within the remaining time,
"if the political will is there" Hmm < the mind over matter theory of economics >
....
He thus relegates the transitional period to a matter of implementing what has been agreed
– essentially to allow the French, Belgians and the Dutch to catch up with their administration Hmm [facepalm]
....
Davies: "It will be quite tough to get customs in the right place in two years but it's doable with a bit of money,
but to get the French customs in the same place in two years or the Belgian or the Dutch customs I think will be a different issue, that's why a transition period [is needed]"
....
Doubtless, Mr Davis actually believes what he's saying, so confirming the many warnings we've been getting – direct and indirect – about
our Brexit Secretary being almost totally detached from reality.
....
From diverse sources, though, I get a sense of the mood changing, and not for the better.

Pessimism stalks the land and more as more people now believe that the most likely Brexit scenario is that the UK crashes out of the EU without a deal.
....
Within the last few days, the Financial Times had his Gideon Rachman do a piece outlining our options,
which now seem to be distinctly unpromising.

These range from a limited trade deal where the UK is forced to accept the EU's terms, more or less in their entirety,
to the "no deal" scenario.
But the third humiliating outcome involves Britain realising that there is no good Brexit on offer.
It abandons the whole idea and returns meekly to the EU fold.

Faced with that latter prospect, one can see the "ultras", having largely engineered the failure of the talks,
pushing for a rapid, "no deal" exit.

The effect of that will be to precipitate an economic depression of a scale similar to that of the 20s, if not worse Sad

The resultant internal strife could take decades to heal – and the economy a great deal longer.

The really scary thing about this is that, as you look at Davis and listen to his simplistic, comforting nostrums, there is not the slightest hint that he recognises the peril that confronts us.

Either we have totally misread the situation, or we really are looking at a man who dwells in an alternate universe.
....
Tailoring the EEA Agreement to fit the requirements of the UK would take most if not all of the time we have left, and we could not finalise the Article 50 settlement until we knew where we were going with the EEA.
....
Even though the advantages of continued Single Market participation are evident and well-expressed here, the opportunity is slipping away in a miasma of delusion and ignorance.

What too few people seem to understand here is that
it is possible for nations to go into a spiral of decline from which there is no recovery.

Of the great empires of the past, we can look to Greece, Rome, Spain and even Austria and Hungary. Where are they now in the global league?
....
while we have been living with managed decline ever since the First World War,
there is no indication that we can survive the effects of a bodged Brexit.

Smaller perturbations have cause greater damage,
so blind optimism is not going to save us.

The writing is on the wall.
The banks are leading the exodus, and the rest will follow.

Altogether, the only result we have seen from May's ascension to prime minister is, one-by-one, for our options to close in Angry

BigChocFrenzy · 14/07/2017 12:45

A reality check is fine; the economy spiralling downwards is not.
There would be insufficient money for even the current public services, nhs, pensions, benefits etc

LurkingHusband · 14/07/2017 12:53

If the Barmy Brexit Brigade had put 1/10th the effort into reforming the EU that they did into rubbishing it, I suspect they wouldn't have wanted to leave.

It's a terrible demonstration of the old adage that when the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

Only in this case the "tool" is a lack of imagination, empathy, foresight, courage, dedication, and lack of love for your fellow man.

Artisanjam · 14/07/2017 12:58

I'm sorry if this has already been linked, but the OBR report indicates that Britain is less able to weather a downturn than in 2007:

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/13/uk-public-finances-brexit-downturn-obr-recession

"The almost inevitable likelihood of a recession in the years ahead, along with higher interest rates and inflation, also posed significant risks to the public finances, threatening to put them on an “unsustainable path”."

Mrsmartell08 · 14/07/2017 13:08

DD et al seem to be fiddling while the UK rome burns
Dont these people realise they and their memory will be villified for generations to come?
I think NF has realised this and is making plans to leave.
He knows the score

LurkingHusband · 14/07/2017 13:16

I think NF has realised this and is making plans to leave.

Has anyone been able to establish whether he has German citizenship ?

I appreciate the irony that German privacy laws may make it impossible to officially confirm.

Mrsmartell08 · 14/07/2017 13:22

He's stated he's worried about "being lynched"

howabout · 14/07/2017 13:24

Artisan according to GO this means we need more Austerity to put things right. According to JMcD this proves the last 7 years of Austerity have just served to embed structural weaknesses of low wage / low productivity and under investment.

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