Westministenders: Transition

[RedToothBrush]

Last thread opener, it was all about the government buzz word being shown to listen at every opportunity.

Now transition is creeping in as people realise that no we can't just do a settlement, arrange a new trade deal with the EU and have a whole host of other deals in place in two years.

Who'd have thought.

We will be getting Brexit because we give in to threats of terrorism. Not quite getting how that takes back control.

But Brexit will be good. It will be glorious. And in the long term we will be better off for it.

Er ok.

[howabout]

otoh

www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken

[Theworldisfullofidiots]

I voted Labour instead of libdem. I live in a Tory safe seat and it was the only possible way to even come close to shaking things.

[Valentine2]

If it's who I think it is, she's a he

Who exactly are we talking about here? Can someone pls DM me? I really need to know this. I am very infrequent and can't really make out patterns so I want your help on this please.

[PattyPenguin]

howabout that's hardly surprising. The Adam Smith Institute is a neo-liberal, extreme free market think tank.

Do have a look at its blog article "The Welcome and Long Overdue Death of the Cult of the NHS". Amongst other pearls.

[Eeeeeowwwfftz]

I think it was going into coalition with the Tories that did it for the libdems. This is not entirely fair, as if you compare the chaos of the last two years (and it has, amazingly, only been two years) to the five years of the coalition, I think it's hard to argue that the libdems didn't act as a restraint.

Now the problem is this. Either you don't mind a Tory government, in which case you may as well vote Tory, or you thought the libdems were an anti-Tory vote, in which case you'll never vote for them again, and are left with Labour as the only option. These days it seems to me the only reason for voting libdem is if you're a Tory who's a bit cross with them about the Brexit thing, or if you're in a constituency where they stand a chance of winning a seat. Tuition fees are a smokescreen, frankly.

It's also worth noting that the libdems are also split down the middle between the economically left and right. Their alliance is social liberalism, which is compatible with a variety of economic outlooks.

[Mrsmartell08]

Yep
Going in with the Tories is what did for the lib dems

[frumpety]

I just remembered someone posting on a previous thread that said that The Times reported that the Libdems had the most sensible policies , yet the electorate don't appear interested in sensible , which to tbh doesn't really surprise me , given our current situation

[DorothyL]

This is what many people from and in EU states can't get their head round I think - Britain always had a reputation for being unideological and pragmatic, what's happened???

[SwedishEdith]

mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/lexit.html

'Lexit
I often find that arguments for Lexit have many structural similarities to right wing arguments for Brexit.'

[Mistigri]

I often find that arguments for Lexit have many structural similarities to right wing arguments for Brexit.

Aren't they just the same arguments, with a sheepy fleece rather than wolf fur?

I seem to recall that a certain JC was on telly at the weekend blaming migrants for the usual things.

[LurkingHusband]

Britain always had a reputation for being unideological and pragmatic, what's happened???

I'm not convinced we ever were ... not "religious" like (some) Catholic countries, but not that level headed. I refer you to my previous assertion the British (or is it English) really don't like evidence-based policies ...

[mathanxiety]

www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40703369
On the topic of food.

Food exports (heck even food sales at home) rely on reputation. BSE has already put a major dent in the British food brand.

[frumpety]

Has anyone else noticed the price of apples seems quite high at the moment even in places like Aldi ? I suppose there will be a seasonal element to that though , perhaps they will be cheaper again in the Autumn ?

[frumpety]

Sorry my musings are probably a bit inane at this time in the morning , dawn chorus woke me an hour ago and Chris Packam would probably have me strung up for my violent thoughts towards one particularly arsey blackbird

[mathanxiety]

From a good while upthread:
math you genuinely believe that the Russians have had no influence at all on the situation in America right now? Their links with the Trump campaign and the alt-right are clearly documented. Their influence on the election is pretty clear. Russian bots regularly publicised Breitbart news stories, flooding social media with them. Bannon has clear links with Russia and a financial stake in Cambridge Analytica. The ties between Mercer and Koch interests and Russia are there
[Bigly]

The Democrats are hoping the allegation of Russian involvement will provide a way to get Trump impeached, so obviously the more the merrier is a good thing. Republicans cannot refuse to go along because it is part of the American identity at this point to be against Russia.

In addition, those Republicans who always felt lukewarm about Trump are hoping the allegations will hobble Trump. Those who like the sound of 'President Pence' wouldn't mind seeing Trump impeached, as long as impeachment wouldn't take Pence down or tarnish the rest of the GOP too much (dream on). The GOP has an agenda that it will try to push whether Trump is president or not. They have a majority in both the House and Senate. It actually doesn't matter what Republican is president.

The former Russian ambassador had a busy social calendar (and incidentally it included plenty of contact with Democrats), and Democratic politicians and donors are also involved in big business, oil included, which automatically brings companies and individuals into contact with Russia and with Saudi Arabia and all other oil producers. Contact with Russia via the oil business does not mean that individuals or companies are operatives of Russia. There is far too much enthusiastic joining of dots going on.

There is great danger in pushing this theory of vital Russian involvement in the election too far and too fast, namely that it will not be proved sufficiently to bring about an impeachment. If this does not bring him down (preferably with Pence too and of course Steve Bannon and all his merry men) then Trump-Pence will be strengthened immeasurably. So far all the 'links' are a long way from 'clear', and indeed it looks as if a long road lies ahead, with no hint of a destination one way or another apart from wishful thinking about Trump getting cold feet and bailing. It's good while it lasts and everyone has a stake in making it last - nobody really likes Trump in the GOP and the Democrats prefer to see the circus continue as long as possible because it all discredits the GOP.

Talk of 'clear links' with no supporting evidence or very flimsy evidence, and tenuous 'links' only strengthens Trump in the long run.

The tenuous Koch link for instance – the Koch brothers have been in the business of spreading libertarian beliefs by means of buying politicians and elections since the 70s:
www.cnn.com/2017/03/22/politics/kochs-reserve-fund-health-care/index.html

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/08/30/covert-operations
The idea that Russia (and only Russia) is the enemy of western democracy is preposterous.

Cambridge Analytica went head to head with the Koch bros in the presidential campaign and CA (Robert Mercer) won. The primaries were a case of Team Koch vs Team Trump. The Kochs didn't even want Trump to be president.
www.newsweek.com/2016/10/07/charles-david-koch-donald-trump-afp-503496.html
The Koch-funded technology firm i360 manages all that data and produces those apps AFP canvassers rely on when they’re knocking on doors. Its database is a vault of voting records, consumer data, census information and social media profiles on more than 250 million adults, i360 says, 190 million of whom are registered to vote. In today’s high-tech politics, this kind of granular data is crucial for conducting the kind of targeted campaigns that win elections.

“They’ve been very transparent about what they’re trying to do, and I think a lot of people don’t believe them,” Wilson muses. “They want to replace political parties.”

Nobody needed Russia in order to win the election.

[HashiAsLarry]

frump i was on,y campaigning to dh that the price of cucumbers in Aldi has gone up 9p in the last three of so weeks. Doesn't sound hat bad, but 9p was a third of the original price

[HashiAsLarry]

Complaining not campaigning

[frumpety]

Ah Math you put me to shame with your mind like a steel trap at this early hour

The transparency thing resonates with me , I have the feeling that a lot of people in the UK genuinely believe that the UK government will not act in a way that is detrimental to the well being of its citizens and yet it is and is quite vocal about doing so . Hidden in plain sight and all that !

[frumpety]

Hashi did you also notice that the super bargain fruit and veg selection this week was a bit unusual , so not what your average shopper would have on their list , coconuts , lemons , little peppers ?

[frumpety]

Waits for recipes for pepper, lemon and coconut risotto , curry , etc

[Eeeeeowwwfftz]

To the extent that I understand it, the Lexit argument is based on the premise that the eu is by design an institution with a neoliberal economic policy, and therefore if you want to pursue a different economic direction you have to be out of it. Now like most claims relating to the eu I suspect this is bollocks but life is too short to verify if ever assertion on the internet is bollocks, so I haven't checked this one in detail. However, I have read some expert legal opinion that suggests that things like renationalising railways is not impossible within the eu, despite directives that at face value seem to prohibit it. My general impression is that where there's a will, there's a way. The main reason we've pursued an agressive programme of privatisation in this country is that we keep electing national governments that are committed to it.

I think what JC is trying (and failing) to say is that freedom of movement can result in wages being driven down to artificially low levels that are determined by living costs in other countries and this can have a detrimental effect on wages in countries where the living costs are higher. I don't have the data or expertise to work out if this is a real problem or not, but I can see that logically it could be. If there are industries that rely on being able to exploit low wage and working conditions expectations from other countries, I would tend to find that worrying and would want to look for a long term solution to that problem.

[frumpety]

So what's to stop say Nissan upping sticks and moving to Poland , to benefit from lower wages etc ?

[Eeeeeowwwfftz]

Nothing, I presume though others are more clued in than me on this. I'm guessing I'm thinking of sectors like agriculture and care where the work needs to be done in a specific place and the therefore you can't cut costs by moving the industry. But you can cut costs by importing labour.

Perhaps this is simply a feature of the globalised world we now live in.

[Motheroffourdragons]

So what's to stop say Nissan upping sticks and moving to Poland , to benefit from lower wages etc ?

The secret bribe deal TM made in the early days after the Brexit vote ?

[frumpety]

The care sector already uses a lot of 'imported' labour , or it certainly does in my area .

Mother want to place a bet on that deal expiring in about 2020/21 ?