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Brexit

Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

976 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 12:39

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

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LurkingHusband · 06/07/2017 15:58

We need to get to a point in mediaspace where it will be possible for all the current Brexiteers to be able to say - with a straight face - Well I never wanted Brexit anyway

Add to the BoJo flip, the "news" from IDS that he "wasn't really a committed" Brexiteer ....

As I see it, there are a few escape routes available ...

  1. I was really Remain all along, but had to do what the nasty Leavers told me (BoJo, IDS)
  2. True, I advocated Leave, but the data I based my decision on turns out to have been flawed. Nothetheless, as a good democrat I tried to deliver the will of the people, but it turned out to be impossible (Gove ????)
  3. True, I advocated Leave, but the lack of vision and courage of my parliamentary colleagues has made the process intolerable (DD ????)

and variants thereof.

I think it's starting to be clear that the only way to avert Brexit, is to let the Leavers off the hook. I suggest any Remain enthusiasts in the room prepare for a future of Remainers having to accept the blame for Brexits ultimate failure, just to shut the Leavers up.

LurkingHusband · 06/07/2017 16:00

I think we need An Event ("events, dear boy, events") that will allow Brexiteers to claim that things have changed sufficiently that the referendum result is no longer deemed to be the will of the people. I don't know off-hand what that could be

A small war somewhere ?

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2017 16:08

I think we need An Event ("events, dear boy, events") that will allow Brexiteers to claim that things have changed sufficiently that the referendum result is no longer deemed to be the will of the people.

Dear Nissan, I like Sunderland very much and feel for all who will get screwed by it, but if you are going to make an announcement, can you do it sooner rather than later.

A small war somewhere ?

Dear Donald, you look hell bent on starting a war, despite me wishing desperately that you won't. I don't know whether you intend it to be at home or abroad. Please don't do it, I have friends who will be caught up in it, and it doesn't bear thinking about. However if you are really that crazy and its completely inescapable, doing so before March 2019 might well work best for us.

That's the worst bit isn't it? An 'event' is really going to fuck up some poor sods life in a really bad way. Wishing for an event feels pretty sick.

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OlennasWimple · 06/07/2017 16:11

Brexit is going to fuck up some poor sod's life in a really bad way too, Red. To steal a quote from Game of Thrones, "If you think this is going to have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention".

GaspodeWonderCat · 06/07/2017 16:14

Well Trump is promising things wrt North Korea. Whether it stays small is debatable ...

LurkingHusband · 06/07/2017 16:20

An 'event' is really going to fuck up some poor sods life in a really bad way. Wishing for an event feels pretty sick.

We're descending into "The Thick of It", aren't we ? (Or, for the more nerdy, "In The Loop" and a certain leaning wall .....)

Grenfell was "an event" Sad.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2017 16:32

Otto English‏*@Otto*_English
There used to be a fake auction at the end of Oxford Street. They claimed they were selling electronics cheap but it was a complete scam.
Other members of the gang would pretend to be punters and get thrown the real stuff. Gullible passers by bought crap that didn't work.
It lasted years because those scammed never went back to complain and were too embarrased to admit it. That's Brexit in a nutshell.
My friend "John" who was a barrister at the time fell for it. Then went back and quoted the law at them.

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BiglyBadgers · 06/07/2017 16:36

Clearly a man looking for a challenge Confused

The Man In Charge Of The BBC’s Political TV Shows Has Become Theresa May’s Director Of Communications
Robbie Gibb was responsible for the BBC’s Westminster output – and is now in charge of making the prime minister look good.
www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/jimwaterson/the-man-in-charge-of-the-bbcs-political-tv-shows-has-become

Sostenueto · 06/07/2017 16:53

Theresa May does u-turn on immigration checks for Grenfell victims. Its in the independent. Sorry I can't post links or my pup picture my phone won't do it. My daughters have tried repeatedly for me.

Sostenueto · 06/07/2017 16:55

Apparently checks will take place in 12months. Well they are not going to come forward then. Was this a deliberate u-turn do real number who perished never going to be known?

LurkingHusband · 06/07/2017 16:58

Theresa May does u-turn on immigration checks for Grenfell victims.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40512382

The problem is, it's not really thought through is it ???

Come forward - get deported in 12 months.
Don't come forward - never get deported.

And it totally manages to move the debate about dreadful living conditions, poverty and substandard housing below the fold.

Which was the whole idea - certainly not to help migrants ...

WorshipTheGourd · 06/07/2017 16:59

Re a change of circumstance / an Event which makes the previous 'will of the people' ignorable with straight face / need rechecking.

This is what NS is saying in Scotland after all. It's not that IndyRef1 is being ignored by potential IndyRef2, just that (with Brexit being such a car crash) it needs:' re-assessing'. For once (whisper it) she is right :(

How 'emporers new clothes' is it that we need to tippytoe around the egos of the current mob before we can all shout: 'He is wearing NO CLOTHES' / 'Brexit is not possible the way anyone thought and is a disaster'!!!!!!!!!!

WorshipTheGourd · 06/07/2017 17:02

Red
your friend 'John' the barrister who got scammed then went back and argued the law with them wasn't a JRM-alike was he?
If so, I might know him too!

lalalonglegs · 06/07/2017 17:03

I have also seen someone saying on twitter that they heard IDS on the radio saying that he didn't campaign for Leave and he only made up his mind the day before the referendum. I can't verify this though - the person said himself he couldn't remember the source, but thought it was World at One. IDS has also been on Radio 2. I'd love to find out if this was indeed true. It would not surprise me.

Your twitter source was correct - I was driving at the time and almost hit another car when IDS made that claim. You can hear his bare-faced lie - which Martha Kearney didn't really challenge - on iplayer about 18.30 mins in.

LurkingHusband · 06/07/2017 17:10

You can hear his bare-faced lie - which Martha Kearney didn't really challenge

It's almost as if this thread is writing the script ? (Now there's a movie to be made).

If we are in "turning-circle-of-a-supertanker" phase, then the media narrative has to allow people to spin bullshit like this.

Maybe there is a chain-reaction nature to it (tipping point ?). The problem in the UK is the public reliance on UK sources (since it's axiomatic that Leavers won't consult non-UK media). So things move slowly.

taytopotato · 06/07/2017 17:15

Re: IDS, well there is a crowdpac funding going around so he can be unseated. Target has now been raised to £10k from £3k.

Sostenueto · 06/07/2017 17:17

So so true lurking husband.Sad

taytopotato · 06/07/2017 17:19

Professor Vernon Bogdanor, a well respected constitutional lawyer. His take on Brexit

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 06/07/2017 17:21

and is now in charge of making the prime minister look good

Brave man.

lurking

I think it's starting to be clear that the only way to avert Brexit, is to let the Leavers off the hook. I suggest any Remain enthusiasts in the room prepare for a future of Remainers having to accept the blame for Brexits ultimate failure, just to shut the Leavers up

I think you've got a real pint there. Of Brexit is averted some Leavers are going to be pretty embarrassed by their piss poor decision making.

Blame the Remainers for not "getting behind Brexit." Need to make sure it's the Remainers who get the blane not the EU. EU has been a handy scapegoat for decades, that's probably one of the things that got us into this mess.

lalalonglegs · 06/07/2017 17:23

Lots of people over the course of these threads have predicted that Leave voters will distance themselves from Brexit but it takes a particular shamelessness to do that if you're IDS Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2017 17:29

Nick Clegg was given an opportunity by George Osborne to 'pass' on the rise in university tuition fees - but rejected it

?!!ShockShock Dynamite if true

Claims are in a new book on David Cameron’s premiership:

https://www.indy100.com/article/nick-clegg-was-offered-a-pass-on-a-rise-in-tuition-fees-by-george-osborne-and-apparently-turned-it-down--WJQXsBQkLg

"Tuition fees for university students are to rise, despite a clear Lib Dem pledge to oppose any such increase.
Osborne recognises that it will be a significant hit for Clegg

(he tells his Tory staff, They are mad to let us do this’)

and offers to pass on the proposal telling him the change is not imperative

Clegg rejects the offer, a momentous decision for the future of the Liberal Democrats, believing again that the change is part of the necessary punishment."

James O'Shaughnessy, Cameron’s former director of policy, tweeted in May:

[Nick] "Clegg [is] talking crap on tuition fees.
He wasn't between 'rock and hard place'.
I was in the room when he decided to vote for it. He was keen."

LurkingHusband · 06/07/2017 17:30

Of Brexit is averted some Leavers are going to be pretty embarrassed by their piss poor decision making.

If ???

No they won't. They will be praised by Remainers for their courage. Their vision. Their sense of purpose. Their faith. Their consistency (?). The fact that they were willing to risk it all, whilst we lily-livered, spineless arrogant entitled remainers mocked their every effort.

Dunkirk is taught as a victory in the UK. We still celebrate "The Charge of the Light Brigade" - with most people knowing fuck all about either.

We live in an age where "the court of public opinion" trumps all, and people regularly talk of "loopholes in the law" (generally the "loophole" being you actually have to be guilty before you can be charged).

The only saving grace, is this is the world the Leavers built and live in. The biter bit, so to speak.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2017 17:31

Yes, I know it's old, but I at least missed all this at the time - in Sweden
Have the allegations in the book proved to be true / false ?

LurkingHusband · 06/07/2017 17:32

Sounds like someone is keeping Gorgeous Georges seat warm in Westminster ?

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2017 17:33

Does anyone know if Clegg decimated the LDems MPs for bugger all reason ?
For those I know who will never vote LDem: it is still about tuition fees.

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