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Brexit

Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

976 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 12:39

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 11/07/2017 20:55

but wanted to send a message that they were unhappy.

I was tempted to do that myself - to show Cameron what I thought of him, but expecting Remain to win anyway. I didn't do so in the end, but I did get the bonus of getting rid of Cameron, only to get someone even worse. Which I never thought possible!

SwedishEdith · 11/07/2017 21:06

The Norths (Flexiters) and Iain Martin have had a little Twitter spat. Tbh, I can see both sides on this one. Grin

Pete North‏ @PeteNorth303 2h2 hours ago
Pete North Retweeted Iain Martin
No, I'm just unpleasant you and your idiotic clan of toryboys because you have no talent, no integrity, no decency or backbone.

Iain MartinVerified account @iainmartin1
Replying to @eureferendum @WatersJon and 2 others
your work is important. you needed to influence millions of Britons, but because you are so unpleasant to people you talk to a tiny group.

Cailleach1 · 11/07/2017 21:06

Who gets to interpret or opine what each person voted for, other than the ticked answer to the question on the ballot? May didn't say her party received votes from people who normally voted Labour and were in protest of the leadership of JC and Momentum. Should she reflect on that and say she can't possibly form minority gov't as she doesn't have a real mandate considering the proportion of these votes from Labour defectors to the Cons (even after giving ransom money to DUP, my humble opinion)?

Cailleach1 · 11/07/2017 21:11

In fact, if several percent of the Leave vote was for a change in the UK rather than leave the EU, does that mean that the mandate for Brexit should now be reviewed. Remove several percent from the 52 (to remove other issue protest voters) and you only have a minority who simply voted for Leave.

lalalonglegs · 11/07/2017 21:29

There was a very revealing line in the Guardian Brexit short film that starred Kristen Scott Thomas. She played a middle-class shires leaver and, after banging on about all the shortcomings in her village (fortnightly bin collections etc), she said, "And then I realised that we weren't voting to leave the EU, we were voting to leave England." Smile

OlennasWimple · 11/07/2017 21:30

Cailleach1 - honestly, I really think that is the case. Admittedly, there are plenty of Remain voters who wanted to "send a message" but ultimately played it safe, but I do believe that there are sufficient numbers of Leave voters who didn't really really think that they would win and would have voted differently if they had known just how tight it was going to be.

mathanxiety · 11/07/2017 21:47

People won't believe that the flushing sound is the economy heading for the coast until Marmite disappears from the supermarket shelves.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2017 21:50

The most infamous Leaver who really didn't expect - or want - Leave to win:

Bojo, of course !

That look of horror on his face the next morning was the only laugh I had that entire week

LurkingHusband · 11/07/2017 21:51

However much May redefines the referendum she'll never eliminate the fact that nearly half the vote was for the exact opposite.

I think that's the most succinct summary of the shit we are always going to be in until someone has the guts to take the bull by he horns.

Protagonist: Half the country want this
Antagonist: And half the country don't.

result - paralysis.

mathanxiety · 11/07/2017 21:52

Wrt the recent political gymnastics (TM asking for input) and the shiny new nterpretation of the referendum - Theresa May just can't bring herself to say that the election was a huge mistake, all hers, and that clearly she has no mandate.

RedToothBrush · 11/07/2017 21:53

www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/aristocrat-facing-jail-over-racist-facebook-threat-to-antibrexit-campaigner-gina-miller-a3585586.html
Aristocrat facing jail over racist Facebook threat to anti-Brexit campaigner Gina Miller

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 11/07/2017 22:03

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2977314-Westministenders-Transition?watched=1

New thread. Not feeling well ATM. So not posting as much.

OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 11/07/2017 22:07

Math, "People won't believe that the flushing sound is the economy heading for the coast until Marmite disappears from the supermarket shelves."

I think the gov't act like they won't be a third country come March 2019. All the time in the world and they can just get an extension, like a college essay submission. Get a sick note. We was busy doing other distraction things. Stand up in parliament and spout invective. 'You tell them to go whistle'. With the support of the Foreign Secretary.

The EU, however, are not allowing Brexit to dominate the business of the Union. In many ways, Brexit is now a technical matter to be sorted out. The Council has delegated to the Commission. What the Brexiteers want is for May to be sitting opposite Merkel giving her what for negotiating. Won't be happening.

Artisanjam · 11/07/2017 22:09

Sorry to hear you're not well Red.

Daily mash sums it up again:

JEREMY Corbyn has been given all the government’s Brexit paperwork and is now responsible for the whole thing, Theresa May has announced.
The prime minister tipped nine boxes of key documents over the Labour leader’s garden gate at 3am this morning before climbing back into a hired van and ordering Philip Hammond to ‘fucking go’.

She said: “I believe in cross-party co-operation, so it’s his problem now.
“He’s got all the Brexit stuff so he owns it. And if it all goes wrong we’ll know exactly who to blame – him and his anti-EU fanatics.”
Corbyn said: “I did hear a noise in the night but assumed it was just hedgehogs, who I feed without expecting anything in return because I believe in society.
“But this morning there’s paperwork all over the garden, floating in the pond, tangled in my rambling rose, in a hell of a state. It’s taken me all morning just to tidy it up.
“I don’t know how to do all this. I’m going to take it down to Citizen’s Advice and get them to help me with it. What happens if we miss the deadline?”
An EU spokesman said: “For the love of God will you please sort your fucking selves out?”

Cailleach1 · 11/07/2017 22:09

Sorry to hear that, Red. Hope you feel better soon. Thanks for the safety valve that is the Westministenders.

lalalonglegs · 11/07/2017 22:11

I hope you make a swift recovery, Red.

Am busy picking my jaw off the floor at Viscount St Davids's claim that his posting about Gina Miller wasn't racist. He really is vile and it's worth bearing in mind that only 20 years ago, he could have been sitting in the House of Lords... For that alone, we have something to thank Tony Blair for.

pointythings · 11/07/2017 22:21

Get well soon, Red. And thanks for the new thread.
I showed my DH the Viscount St Davids story in more detail after it was on the BBC news and heavily minimised. Because he was wondering what was so bad. He was ShockShockShockShockShock when I showed him the report from the Independent.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2017 22:26

What is astonishing is he offered a £5000 bounty for someone to "accidentally" run over Gina Miller

That's not just a casual silly remark someone might make like, say: "I'd like to strangle / shoot / murder her"
It's offering a specific amount of money.

One law for the wealthy aristocracy ...?

We've seen before how the CPS and the courts treat someone offering money to kill someone:

it's incitement to murder,
plus conspiracy to murder if anyone agrees - including an undercover cop, who obviously never goes through with it

and the sentence is often a few years, because judges have no sense of humour when it comes to attempts at "murder for hire"

  • or at least they do for non-aristocrats.
BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2017 22:28

I read when the charge was first made, but didn't want to comment before the case had come to court and the evidence published

OlennasWimple · 11/07/2017 22:35

Perhaps there will be lots more [[http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/brexiter-to-claim-he-was-just-kidding-20170621129978 "Brexit Toms" over the coming weeks and months...

That Gina Miller story is outrageous and scary in equal measures! Shock

Hope you are feeling better Red Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2017 22:35

Evidence in court:

"This f@@@ing boat jumper come to country, then believes she knows better than the people of our country, what is best for us.
"If this is what we should expect from immigrants, send them back to their stinking jungles."

And about another immigrant (v cheeky benefit claimant) in the news:
""Please will someone 'smoke' this ghastly insult to our country. Why should we pay tax to feed these monkeys. A return to Planet of the apes is not acceptable.....

"I will open the bidding.
£2000 in cash for the first person to carve Arnold Sube into pieces. Piece of sh@t."

OlennasWimple · 11/07/2017 22:36

Let's try that link again...

BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2017 22:37

I hope you feel better v soon, red Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2017 22:43

Thanks, Olenna Smile

HashiAsLarry · 12/07/2017 10:57

Get well soon red.

Not posting much myself as dh is in hospital so not really on the planet. Will try to catch up. Managed to see Johnson's caused some sort of outrage. Could he not have waited until I was less busy? Angry

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