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Brexit

Westministenders: Hey Hey we're the Monkies.

976 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2017 12:39

Welcome to the Listening Parliament.

Have you noticed it yet?

The Three Monkeys of See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil have been in a bit of a fight with didn’t fair well. Its funny how politicians of all shades and levels are desperate to prove just how good they at listening and how they see the problems.

Its quite incredible to think that officials elected to serve the public are even in this position where they are having suddenly think about how they show they are listening. It rather shows up that they have been accustomed to telling the public what to think and what to believe.

What they are still to work out, is that in saying they are listening, they also have to demonstrate they are listening and be credible.

The trouble is, that even though some of the monkeys have been killed off, we still have a lot of monkeys in parliament. 'Monkey say, Monkey do' actions still lurk. Politicians who imitate others without understanding the consequences.

There is no point in listening if you are only listening to one group and don’t understand the consequences of simply repeating the words of others.

Politicians saying they are listening when you can find dozens of incidents where they have said completely the opposition, without having the gumption to explain they have changed their position and without having the grace to explain the evidence that has lead them to change that position rather undermines the idea they are listening.

U-Turns are not a bad thing. U-Turns can show that you were making an error but were wise enough to admit that and why you were wrong. U-Turns are bad when you fail to acknowledge your failings and only do it to chase votes. This is where cynicism creeps in and lack of trust in politicians occurs.

Listening also requires actions to reflect words. There is no good in saying one thing, if your actions don’t reflect that. This is where the Listening Parliament is already failing. And I’m sure we will see it more.

Above all, listening is only part of a conversation. A politician is supposed to be accountable. They are supposed to have their eyes open to evil, not deaf to it and not unwilling to speak inconvenient truths where they recognise the evil.

Any politician who tells you they listen needs to back it up somehow. They need to demonstrate and justify their positions accurately. If they don’t they aren’t listening properly.

Isn’t it funny how it was in Hartlepool that the monkey got hung for being a Frenchman? No one was there to explain differently.

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Thread gallery
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Valentine2 · 06/07/2017 17:33

Apart from trashing our reputation globally, dividing the country, and wasting a lot of money.
^ This. X 10.
I have just seen BoJo longing to be able to tweet like the Trump! Saying Trump has changed the way world thinks.

BoJo needs to be disowned by Leave. A nice poster boy they have got.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2017 17:34

Simon Gardner‏**@Simon**_Gardner

@JolyonMaugham Looking as if Gov’t may be looking for advice on how to rescind A.50 notice. Do you know anyone who has done any groundwork?

Jo Maugham QC‏**@JolyonMaugham**

@Simon_Gardner I understand the Government has taken advice on whether it can revoke Article 50 and has been advised that it cannot.

Steve Peers‏*@StevePeers*
Any further detail? Was there a steer from govt, or was this an independent opinion? Maybe I should write my bit on this issue...

Why would the government seek this advice? How reliable is this advice? A50 and parliament reliable?

Donald Tusk has said its legally possible.

Is it a question of being legally or politically possible?

Interesting.

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MsHooliesCardigan · 06/07/2017 17:38

I completely agree about letting Leavers off the hook for there to be any chance of Brexit not happening. Nobody likes admitting they were wrong and, the louder someone banged the Brexit drum, the harder it is to back down.
Saying 'I told you so' is more likely to make Brexiters dig their heels in.
The multi billionaires who want to turn us into a tax haven won't give up but I think the steady drip of price rises and firms leaving the U.K. will eventually seep through to the ordinary people who voted Leave and make them question whether 'Sovereignty' is worth the risk of losing their job.
I think it was misti who has commented that it's hard to find anyone who admits to agreeing with the Iraq war even though the vast majority of the British public did at the time. I (reluctantly) did because I believed Blair's lies. I don't see any shame in Leavers admitting that they were lied to and they've changed their mind. We all change our minds all the time when confronted with new evidence.

BiglyBadgers · 06/07/2017 17:46

For May has been given that advice the EU feels otherwise. They have said repeatedly it can can rescinded at anytime and I am sure I read not long ago that the person who wrote it had said it could be.

This article is from March:
EU leaked document: Britain can reverse Article 50
LThe European Union's official response to Prime Minister Theresa May triggering Brexit states that Article 50 can be reversed, meaning Britain could, in theory, change its mind at some point in the two-year negotiation process.
uk.businessinsider.com/eu-brexit-resolution-article-50-can-be-revoked-2017-3

I think considering the EU are the interested party here if they say we can change our mind I'll take that advice over anyone elses. Hmm

ElenaGreco123 · 06/07/2017 17:54

Re: IDS on the radio. I have listened to it and I can't believe it. DH thinks that the leading leavers must be saying these things for a bet. Surely they can't think we don't remember.

Olenna Who will say sage things on GoT with both Boltons gone?!

OlennasWimple · 06/07/2017 17:57

BigChoc - I'd be inclined to believe that account re the tuition fees TBH. There's a section in David Laws' account of the Coalition that sets out the case for tuition fees (it's very persuasive in fact), and I can imagine that if that conversation happened when Laws was in government (either in the Treasury or his split role in the Cabinet Office) he would have persuaded Clegg to go with it.

the Lib Dems are always so politically naive, it would be sweet if it weren't about something so important as ruling the country

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2017 18:01

Jacqueline Jackson‏*@IAMJJ*_Jackson
What does this mean in reality?

Jo Maugham QC‏*@JolyonMaugham*
Not a great deal. Some lawyers think it's revocable, some don't. If my understanding is right then it just shows the lawyer/s the Govt approached think it's not. They have no monopoly on being right - as Gina Miller would tell you.

Perhaps more interesting is the question (again assuming my understanding is right) why the Government took that advice.

There's a school of thought that the Brexiters want to be able to threaten the r27 with revocation - and if they believe they can't that's bad news for them. If they're contemplating they might want to revoke because they agree this is a sh*tshow it's bad(ish) news for us.

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OlennasWimple · 06/07/2017 18:01

Good question, Elena...

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2017 18:13

Revoking A50

Imo it would need a clear political consensus in the uK for this to be practical.
So that the EU can be sure the UK won't be playing the A50 "in / out / shake it all about" game for the next 10 years.

ex-LD MEP Andrew Duff wrote this a year ago, but he was an insider who understands how the EU works in practice:

http://verfassungsblog.de/brexit-article-50-duff/

Under section 50(3):
“That Article 50 is silent on the matter of revocation does not mean that a change of direction would be illegal under EU law (as long as the CJEU were convinced that the switch was constitutional).

The EU is well practised in the art of the stopped clock.

Given the collateral damage done to the remaining EU by Brexit, a notification that London had changed its mind would be met with very great, if somewhat exasperated relief.”

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2017 18:13

Thanks, Olennas

whatwouldrondo · 06/07/2017 18:14

I have certainly heard Vince Cable say he voted for it because he was convinced it was right as a policy and still does. This was at the time www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/dec/03/vince-cable-university-tuition-fees

This is now news.sky.com/story/scrapping-tuition-fees-would-be-stupid-sir-vince-cable-10934161

I think they are far too principled and worthy for the bear pit of British politics. However though they may never make a government as a result I am pleased we do have people who are guided by principal plus pragmatism rather than dogma and populism.

ElenaGreco123 · 06/07/2017 18:19

No they won't. They will be praised by Remainers for their courage.

I'd be quite happy to praise their courage if we didn't Brexit. Very pragmatic woman here.

Dunkirk is taught as a victory in the UK.
Yes, I don't get that. But then I don't think the second world war was a great adventure we all look back on fondly.

LurkingHusband · 06/07/2017 18:41

But then I don't think the second world war was a great adventure we all look back on fondly.

Generally, for the survivors it was Hmm. Practically saved the British film industry for a while ....

GaspodeWonderCat · 06/07/2017 18:44

We must be very careful not to assign to this deliverance the attributes of a victory. Wars are not won by evacuations. But there was a victory inside this deliverance, which should be noted Churchill on Dunkirk

www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2007/apr/20/greatspeeches1

Dunkirk is taught as a victory which was snatched from the jaws of defeat.

it was hoped that 45,000 men might be evacuated; in the event, over 338,000 Allied troops reached England, including 26,000 French

ElenaGreco123 · 06/07/2017 18:52

Practically saved the British film industry for a while
I am afraid to say making (very) light of other people's suffering upsets me in these films. I literally have to leave the room when it is all heroism and comradely laughter.

StainlessSteelButtercup · 06/07/2017 18:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Artisanjam · 06/07/2017 19:04

Although the film is starring Harry Styles who has come out as a

Artisanjam · 06/07/2017 19:04

Remainer!

Sort - lost half my post!

Valentine2 · 06/07/2017 20:08

I think it is generalisation when we say university tuition fees is a populist slogan.
Schools are underfunded. We all know that. Has anyone really thought on other mechanisms for taking the pressure off universities rather than shifting a lot of it on students who belong to a generation that is already suffering a lot?
In my time, I can guarantee you that some of the brightest people in my peers would never have been able to reach there had the tuition fees been this high. In fact, the effect on a part of international funding to attract STEM talent here is already either severely compromised (a large number of international students can't afford it. Simple as that.i am talking about the difference of international and Home tuition that some quite popular STEM scholarships used to bridge) or scrapped altogether by Tories.
It is not as simple as saying it is a populist vote. We really need more research than what is in that Vinci Cable article posted here.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2017 20:21

Brexit faces potential court challenge over 'technical flaw' in way Article 50 was triggered

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-article-50-technical-flaw-national-assembly-wales-baroness-eluned-morgan-a7826116.html

In a plenary session, Baroness Eluned Morgan, the shadow minister for Wales in the House of Lords, said
that the European Union (Notification of Withdrawl) Act did not actually notify the EU of the UK's decision to leave the union.

Baroness Morgan asked the Welsh Finance Secretary, Mark Drakeford, if he agreed "that the Act which triggered the Brexit process could have a technical flaw in it

< This is a followup from the Indy's 22 June 2017 article below >

Brexit: Article 50 is an 'illusion' and was never actually triggered, argues leading barrister

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-article-50-illusion-never-triggered-eu-counsel-magazine-barrister-david-wolchover-theresa-may-a7803596.html

"David Wolchover said that the letter giving notice of the UK's intention to leave the 27 nation bloc had no legal effect and was a non-event, in an article for Counsel Magazine.

He added that the UK never triggered Article 50 because it never made the constitutional decision to leave the EU.

The letter, delivered to European Council President Donald Tusk in March, is “a faux trigger, a chimera, an illusion, not the real thing”

Because the referendum result was not ratified by a government Bill, the withdrawal treaty was “likely to be unlawful”

The wording of the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 gave Ms May the authority to trigger Article 50 but the act does not explicitly state that Parliament makes the decision to leave the EU following from the referendum result

As the referendum and Parliament did not make the constitutional decision to leave the EU, no decision was made and therefore there was nothing to notify Brussels about, and in turn, nothing to negotiate

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2017 20:41

Crystal clear: Barnier restating the EU position to the European Economic and Social Committee

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-releaseSPEECH-17-19222_en.htm

"Many of you, as entrepreneurs, trade unionists, leaders of NGOs, or leaders of the civil society, know that Brexit means uncertainty – for citizens first, for businesses, and for jobs.
There will be no business as usual."
.....
"On the EU side, we made three things very clear:

•	<strong>The free movement of persons, goods, services and capital are indivisible.</strong>

We cannot let the single market unravel.
< German manufacturers - on whom DD & do have been relying - echo this strongly >

•	<strong>There can be no sector by sector participation in the single market:</strong>

you cannot leave the single market and then opt-in to those sectors you like most – say, the automobile industry or financial services.
You cannot be half-in and half-out of the single market.

•	<strong>The EU must maintain full sovereignty for deciding regulations:</strong> 

the EU is not only a big marketplace.
It is also an economic and social community where we adopt common standards. All third countries must respect our autonomy to set rules and standards.
And I say this at the moment when the UK has decided to leave this community and become a third country.

These three points were already made clear – very clear – by the European Council and the European Parliament.
But I am not sure whether they have been fully understood across the Channel. Grin

•	I have heard some people in the UK argue that one can leave the single market and keep all of its benefits – that is not possible.
•	I have heard some people in the UK argue that one can leave the single market and build a customs union to achieve "frictionless trade" – that is not possible.

The decision to leave the EU has consequences.
And we have to explain to citizens, businesses and civil society on both sides of the Channel what these consequences mean for them.

Let me be clear:
these consequences are the direct result of the choices made by the UK, not by the EU.
There is no punishment for Brexit.
And of course no spirit of revenge.

But Brexit has a cost, also for business in the EU27.
And business should assess, with lucidity, the negative consequences of the UK's choice on trade and investment.
And prepare to manage them.

Peregrina · 06/07/2017 20:54

"Tuition fees for university students are to rise, despite a clear Lib Dem pledge to oppose any such increase.
Osborne recognises that it will be a significant hit for Clegg

But he's now paid the political price for this, and I suspect the others, bar Vince Cable, will be rapidly distancing themselves from it.

What 'Events dear boy' could happen? Well, May's Doctor could tell her she had to stand down - that wouldn't have too many knock on effects. Let's hope it's before 12th July, then she will have been in Office one day less than Alec Douglas-Home.

missmoon · 06/07/2017 21:18

"In my time, I can guarantee you that some of the brightest people in my peers would never have been able to reach there had the tuition fees been this high. "

But loans are available to all, and not repayable until earnings reach a certain threshold (and loans are then written off after a certain time). This allows anyone to go to university. In fact, more students from low-income families are going to university now than before the fees increase, and, the percentage of students from poorer backgrounds is higher in England than in Scotland, where there are no fees. I don't agree with the policy as I think there is a social benefit to higher education, so at least part of it should be funded through general taxation. But I don't think there is evidence to say that it stops students from poorer backgrounds attending.

I do take your point about international students, but (a) EU students currently have access to student finance loans on the same terms, and (b) there are numerous scholarships for good Chinese / Commonwealth students (fewer for US / Canadian students). Also, I'm not sure that I agree that general taxation should fund the studies of international students, even if some of them will stay here and contribute to society. Politically this is very difficult to sell.

LurkingHusband · 06/07/2017 21:18

More expert advice ...

The UK should stay in the single market and customs union until a final Brexit deal is in force, according to the CBI.

(contd)

mathanxiety · 06/07/2017 21:24

3) True, I advocated Leave, but the lack of vision and courage of my parliamentary colleagues has made the process intolerable (DD ????)

This tack, along with mutterings about saboteurs, will be the way forward for Brexiters.

There is always an audience for 'stabbed in the back' theories. Sadly, they give life to future campaigns.

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