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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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whatwouldrondo · 01/07/2017 12:17

Bolshy They have already graduated into a recession as far as graduate recruitment is concerned. Apart from the recruiters like the big 4 Accountancy companies and city law firms who need graduates as the cannon fodder and worker bees for their business model (and even then have increasingly started to recruit at 18 into apprenticeships) most businesses have scaled back or stopped graduate recruitment altogether and that includes in the Science sector. The tightening of the job market post Brexit means that jobs that would have been the first step on the ladder for new graduates are going to experienced candidates. Scientists with firsts from our top universities are struggling to get jobs in the sector. So much for encouraging our young people to work hard to get the skills needed for what was this important world leading successful and expanding part of our economy.....

whatwouldrondo · 01/07/2017 12:36

As Red highlighted, doing the rounds in Hong Kong at the moment....

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
Somerville · 01/07/2017 12:38

YY to graduating into recession. I'm hearing this time and time again.
I thought my work (consultancy for tech firms) would fall through the floor after the referendum, and for a few months it did. But then I got very busy - companies deciding to be cautious about hiring, and filling arising gaps with freelancers instead.
And I'm starting to get emails from students who will graduate this summer asking if o offer unpaid internships.
Plus there are the very politicised teenagers who were a bit too young to vote in referendum but are howling at their free movement rights being removed. DD1's Irish passport gets a lot of envy.

It's complex for Labour.

mybrainhurtsalot · 01/07/2017 12:40

Damian Lyons Lowe @DamianSurvation
·
2h
Morning, we have new polling data out today for Westminster VI Brexit & other qs. Delay as f/w finished 9pm Fri so w/be out post QC checks.

Do you reckon it's got very unexpected results so they are frantically rechecking all the numbers??

QuentinSummers · 01/07/2017 13:07

Ah love Vince Cable. Great statement by him. Shame Farron wasn't that explicit in his GE campaign

BigChocFrenzy · 01/07/2017 13:21

You seem to share a common misunderstanding in the UK about the EU position, howabout
If the UK negotiators continue to share this too, then the UK will indeed crash out.

There is a big difference between the EU wanting a Brexit deal and them being prepared to sacrifice anything the uk wants to get one.

The view among business, public and politicians, at least in Germany, is to try hard for a deal, but
NOT if that means either tearing up the rules of the Single market - the 4 freedoms - or sacrificing the rights of current E27 expats.

Business leaders here say that no deal would be less damaging than tearing up the rules for the Single Market

It only takes one of the 38 national parliaments and regional assemblies to veto a deal.

OlennasWimple · 01/07/2017 13:37

Patty - Anglesey Council is very interesting, for many reasons!

Would RBKC be the first Tory council to have commissioners sent in, does anyone know? Perhaps DCLG is considering which functions it would want to take over directly, and which could continue to be run by the council

On the border in Ireland, it's almost pointless to look at what the situation was back in the day, given how different the world is now, both in terms of the NI terrorism threat, but also more widely.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/07/2017 13:38

The main reason the EU have left the door open for Remain is that it is the least bad option for them.

The next least bad one is EEA / EFTA

The only other option they can offer is no trade deal before Brexit, but promising to negotiate a deal afterwards in as few years as possible.

Under WTO rules, the EU cannot give special terms to the UK without a trade deal
They cannot just allow the EU to enjoy Single market and Custom Union benefits without FOM and ECJ.
This includes special terms during a transition period of however many years it takes to negotiate a deal.

There is no time to negotiate one before October 2018, which is the final date, to allow time for it to be passed by everyone.

Especially since trade negotiations won't even start until basic terms have been agreed on expats, NI, how to calculate the exit bill.
It's looking like these will take several months more, or may even not be finished in time, i.e. no trade talks before Brexit

BigChocFrenzy · 01/07/2017 13:48

(Times paywall) Describes how France and other E27 countries are mitigating possible future Brexit loss by grabbing business & jobs from the Uk

The E27 will gain as well as lose from Brexit

They are competing for the spoils, as the UK has already started to bleed business and jobs

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/britons-answer-macron-s-siren-calls-to-escape-across-channel-5pfw3n6xj

France has launched an offensive on swathes of the UK economy to exploit uncertainties over Brexit.

Emmanuel Macron, the newly elected French president with a large parliamentary majority, is spearheading the campaign to woo corporate Britain, in particular bankers, over the Channel.

He is expected to announce plans to cut and simplify corporation tax, while the Paris regional council is pledging to open bilingual schools where children of high-flying international executives can study in English.
It has also set up a relocation service for those who want to move from London, offering help with buying a home, finding a school and dealing with bureaucracy.

Christian Noyer, former governor of the Bank of France, has met hundreds of bankers in both London and New York in an attempt to convince them to make Paris their European headquarters, rather than the UK.
France is trying to exploit anxieties over what sort of deal Britain will secure with Brussels to leave the European Union in 2019.
A number of banks in London have already applied for French banking licences.

Officials acknowledge that they are competing with Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Dublin to become home to Britain’s financial exiles.

French film-makers think Britain’s film industry will be decimated by Brexit, partly because Hollywood producers will be put off by political and fiscal uncertainty.

The Hauts-de-France regional council in northern France set up an office in London last week to convince companies to leave Britain and move to northern French cities such as Calais and Lille.

howabout · 01/07/2017 14:08

Bigchoc I agree with your last post, not confused I don't think. Confused Rather I think it is Vince and Chuka who are deluded.

howabout · 01/07/2017 14:13

Sorry second last post - turns out I am confused Blush

I don't understand how your next post re Remain being least bad option follows from your previous post? Unless EU27 really are deluded enough to think digging their heels in far enough would force the UK to come quietly back to the fold on EU27 terms?

prettybird · 01/07/2017 15:04

Need to placemat as I'm struggling to catch up but just wanted to add that my dad, who taught Liam Fox when he was at medical school, said "he was very mediocre". Hmm

That's the intellect that we have supposedly negotiating these fandabididozy deals with all these countries who have scores to settle with us Hmm

howabout · 01/07/2017 15:17

(waves to pretty) Best not go down that route cos Heseltine irritated me so much this week I googled his backstory. Turns out he was time barred because he failed his accountancy exams so many times. Also almost bankrupted by his "property empire" but was bailed out by friends and family. Made millions from the publishing empire when he left it to his partner to run while he became a politician. Grin

iirc other Tory grandee arch remainer Major barely has a GCSE to his name but then JC is not much better so not holding that against him.

Peregrina · 01/07/2017 15:31

Major gained 3 O levels at school, (about par for the course for grammars at the time - mine produced the same sort of results.) He then gained three more whilst working. So he could have been worse, but he could have been much better.

whatwouldrondo · 01/07/2017 16:16

The Newsnight interview with Lord Patten, former Conservative Party Chairman, was interesting. If you are not interested in the handover he starts to comment on the current state of British politics at 9.45 on. Speaks more sense in two minutes than the Brexiteers have in a year.

Amongst the best bits. On how sad he is we have no Macron and that we are not well governed by a nationalist government who fail to understand the international nature of the world "It is as big a mess as I can remember" Both main parties now dominated and polarised by their extremes, a right wing nationalist minority v the mainstream majority in the Conservatives and the Corbynistas v the social democrats in Labour.

The dire way in which the election was handled, he knew it was not going to be a walk in the park but he did not know it would be a walk in the cemetery, transformed an amiable guy with very old fashioned views into everyone's favourite Grandad. As a result the moderates in the Labour Party are now depressed to find themselves having to deal with the likes of McDonnell and Milne for years to come.

Both political parties have declining membership, the half million members in 1990 -92 when he was Chairman are now 150000, more people are members of the RSPB and yet they have more authority over national policy.

The fact is that the majority of the country are in truth wets, wanting

*a welfare democracy
*market forces but within limits

  • recognition the state is not the enemy but it should not interfere too much in business and industry *an increase in taxes for people like us (meaning those who have the means) because we do not want further cuts in public services
  • recognition that the deficit cannot simply be ignored

Brexit is the problem, by the time the deal is known, his vote will be guided by the fact of it being apparent that the economy is suffering and that we cannot have the benefits of membership without the obligations, and that there is no mattress to cushion our fall over the precipice will have bought about a shift in public opinion.

The real issue for all parties is that even he did not forsee that those under 50 are now mobilised to vote, appalled that the Brexit vote threatens to see the futures they thought they had sent down the plughole.......

whatwouldrondo · 01/07/2017 16:18

Oh and in Patten's opinion Major was by far the cleverest of the three PMs he served, the others were Heath and Thatcher (and she was certainly both clever and educated) .

Peregrina · 01/07/2017 16:27

So many people have tried to warn that this is potentially a disaster. Why does no one listen? Why are they still afraid of the UKIP tendency?

I wouldn't mind betting that those Leave voters in what were staunch Labour areas saw some decent investment in jobs and public facilities, the supposed hostility to immigrants and hence the EU would fade away.

whatwouldrondo · 01/07/2017 16:29

And a brilliant negotiator. Perhaps he could replace Davies, oh wait, another clever person and skilled negotiator who knows a bit about the EU who thinks Brexit is a disaster.....

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 16:35

This looks good: and nice to see Diane Abbot getting a kind welcome
josh🌹 @josh_hardman
Dianne Abbott gets an incredible, moving welcome.
Powerful speech. #ToriesOut #NotOneDayMore

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/01/jeremy-corbyn-to-speak-at-london-anti-austerity-march

Thousands join anti-austerity march in central London
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Diane Abbott, and Owen Jones among the speakers expected at rally’s final stop at Parliament Square.

On the day the tories decide they may have to re think extortionate tuition fees.

4 times the DUP bung would give public service workers a 2% rise.(according to Comrade Neil on the Daily Politics on Thursday)

I have noticed that these marches are such jolly and musical affairs.

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 16:40

I'm shocked it's 20 years since Patton left Hong Kong, whatwouldrondo. He was bereft, looked like he'd loved it there. Mind you, it must have been a pretty lovely gig. Grin

whatwouldrondo · 01/07/2017 17:15

woman He was very popular there, because unlike his predecessors (or recent predecessors) he went out and about and really got to know the people, as well as enjoying the expat lifestyle. Everywhere you go, even into a local dai pai dong, there are signed pictures of Fat Pang, eating there.

The exercise in democracy had a varied reception, there were basically three demographics in HK. The long term Hong Kongers whose families had been there for generations were the most enthusiastic. Those who were refugees from the chaos of China in the latter part of the twentieth century, many swimming there, the tiger sharks were reputed to be numerous and well fed, tended to be more focused on stability and did not want the boat rocked. Those who were Cantonese with extended family across the delta and Guangdong and travelled frequently over the border had a more regional identity. (Now of course there is a younger generation, some not even born in 1997 who have a different identity and different aspirations, and would embrace it fully but Xi's words of the last 24 hours are notice of things moving in a more authoritarian direction and are very worrying.)

However food is important in Chinese and Hong Kong culture and the fact that Fat Pang shared a love of egg tarts united all. Grin

Mrsmartell08 · 01/07/2017 17:22

Still here
Still reading
Too bloody depressed to post

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 17:32

Mrsmartell08
Don't know if this would cheer you up, but I have a tiny patch of wild flowers at the front of my house (deliberately Grin) and this year I've spotted these little fellas in the birds foot trefoil flowers. They're not that unusual, but I'm still chuffed they have decided to live here. 6 spotted Burnet moths.

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
Mrsmartell08 · 01/07/2017 17:36

Oh!
How beautiful!
Much needed...thank you x

woman12345 · 01/07/2017 17:56
Smile
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