Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 08:41

Tory and FUP MPs openly cheering over capping pay for millions of public service workers ? Shock

Next GE, I suggest Labour include a short clip of that. Might help sway quite a few votes.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 08:42

DUP - the "FUP" was my subconscious

HardcoreLadyType · 29/06/2017 08:43

From Jenni Russell of The Times, today.

Davis is a dangerous driver of the Brexit bus.

The buccaneering optimism shown by our chief negotiator with the EU is deluded and alarming

It’s all going to be for the best, in the best of all possible worlds. That was the rosy forecast for Brexit presented by David Davis at a CEO summit hosted by The Times this week. Sunny uplands lay ahead. It would be simple to complete an EU deal by March 2019, giving us almost all the trading benefits we currently enjoy and, immediately afterwards, during a very short transition period, we would be free to sign glorious trade agreements with the rest of the world. The shorter Davis could be summarised in the words of Trump: “Winning! We’re going to win so much, you may even get tired of winning!”

There is much to be said for confidence and hope. There is nothing to be said for Panglossian fantasy, particularly when one man holds the future of our country in his hands. It did not go down well with many of those in the room: one grim-faced CEO, until then agnostic on Brexit, turned to me to say that listening to Davis had been the most disturbing half an hour he had spent in months.

His role is not to grandstand but to be a tactful, wily realist
Europe has repeatedly made clear to Britain that leaving the EU means we will trade on worse terms than we do now. Every credible economic body, from the OECD to the Bank of England, reports that Brexit is already injuring the economy. No one with experience of government, Europe or trade negotiations seriously believes that disentangling ourselves from the continent and creating a new relationship is going to be simple, quick and all to Britain’s benefit. Even Davis’s cabinet colleagues don’t share his insouciance. The chancellor, Philip Hammond, is much more alarmed by the danger of a bad Brexit, and — as became clear yesterday — has quite a different vision of where we should be heading and how long it will take to get there.

There is no basis to Davis’s confidence in what he can achieve other than sublime self-belief. The comments from those who’ve worked with him are scathing: “hates to listen to advice”, “delusions of grandeur”, ”vain and quixotic”, “all noise and bluster”. One appalled politician told me: “He has no practical sense of the realities he’s about to confront”. Businesses, diplomats and civil servants report that he prefers assertion to getting to grips with inconvenient facts.

His department, Dexeu, is finding it hard to recruit and keep staff, in part because Davis has acquired a reputation as a difficult man to work for. He is said to have learned more realism than Liam Fox and Boris Johnson, but that’s a low bar to pass. “He’s not interested in evidence when it doesn’t suit him,” says one insider. Much like the Red Queen, he is capable of thinking six contradictory things before breakfast. An economist reports: “All the evidence of economic benefits that he uses to justify new trade deals is the same evidence that he dismisses when it comes to the effects of leaving the EU.”

Jill Rutter at the Institute for Government is worried by the absence of any informed proposals from Dexeu on how new arrangements for customs, immigration or the Irish border would actually work. Businesses that have come to see Davis have been left aghast at the lack of detailed understanding. Pharmaceutical companies are afraid of losing free access to the European medicines market; aerospace representatives warned him that the plans to leave the customs union and the single market would destroy their ability to import and export parts freely, and that without that Britain’s aerospace industry would collapse. Davis fobbed them all off with vague assurances that none of this was a problem; it would all be fine. They were not reassured.

Davis cannot afford to ignore facts, whether political or economic. Britain’s dealmaker needs a shrewd grasp of our strategic needs and our relative weakness. As the country’s chief negotiator, his role is not to grandstand or cheerlead, but to be a tactful, wily, charming realist.

So far he is not up to the task. An ambassador from a senior member state, who has been briefed on how Davis is viewed by the EU now, has a crushing verdict: “He is part of the problem. He doesn’t know the dossiers well. His style is arrogant, he is full of bluster.” A European insider says Davis appears to have an inflated, jingoistic faith in Britain’s influence which is not going to play out well. “He’s going to be humiliated again and again by the EU, as he was in the first week. How will someone as vain as Davis explain that?.” Even a senior Tory peer and Brexiteer is worried by his performance so far: “I am, frankly, scared. I’d be surprised if it all went right now.”

Davis has supreme faith in his abilities. He sees himself as a buccaneering, judicious risk-taker. But his big judgments have frequently been wrong. In 2005 he thought he was a shoo-in as next Tory leader, and his overconfidence let Cameron seize the prize. He resigned his job as shadow home secretary on a point of principle that no one understood and was left in the political wilderness for almost a decade as a result. He urged May to call this snap election, and yet this week had the cheek to blame her losses on the fact that the campaign had no time to prepare.

Now all of us are at the mercy of this careless cavalier. It’s a grim prospect. His cabinet colleagues need to put pressure on the prime minister to rein him in, and force a more realistic consensual approach.

Europe can see through us. Our emperor’s emissary needs more clothes.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 08:44

The Dangerously Unhinged Party are also be the Fucked-Up Party, but the latter applies to the Tory party too: a DUP-FUP alliance rolls off the tongue nicely

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 08:53

The SNP have lodged a formal complaint with the UK Government over the Tory-DUP pact, claiming it has deprived Scotland of nearly £3bn, because of ignoring the Barnett formula

"“All of the areas to which this £1bn funding package has been allocated - infrastructure development, health (including mental health), education, broadband, deprivation - are devolved matters to which Barnett should apply.

“The UK Government’s argument that there should be no Barnett consequentials for Scotland and Wales (or indeed funding for England) from the financial elements of the agreement is unacceptable.”

Holyrood Finance minister Derek Mackay:
“This UK Government deal prioritises expenditure in Northern Ireland at the cost of all other parts of the UK
and leaves Scotland almost £3bn worse off than it would be if funding had been allocated using the well-established arrangements."

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 08:56

DUP MP goads Sinn Fein over Tory pact as Stormont talks on knife-edge

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/uk-regions/northern-ireland/news/87055/dup-mp-goads-sinn-fein-over-tory-pact-stormont-talks

woman12345 · 29/06/2017 08:58

In the row over public sector pay, don't forget that Theresa May is no longer in charge

Downing Street's view on public sector pay is just that – Conservative MPs pull the strings now.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2017/06/row-over-public-sector-pay-dont-forget-theresa-may-no-longer-charge

HesterThrale · 29/06/2017 09:01

Thanks Hardcore for that Times article about Davis. Scary indeed. We are being led by fools.

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 09:04

Tories, the nasty party don't give a damn about this country or it's people. They care only about money in their pockets

If only that were true Sad. But if it were true, we'd never even have thought of leaving the EU, let alone voting on it.

My suggestion is that Tories are driven by a need to lord it over other people. Yes, financially. But also socially, spiritually, sexually, and morally. I've always found grass roots Toryism a very negative force ... it works by ensuring there's always someone worse off than me.

This is why there's such an appeal in Brexit ... it provides the perfect storm through which to ram policies intended to ensure there's a wide base of misery over which the True Blue can walk.

Now, about that Mumsnet award for most damaged cynic posting. Where do I collect it from Smile.

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 09:22

I think I come a close 2nd for that award! Wouldn't it be ironic the Sein Fein could bring this government down when the DUP are trying to prop it up. NI is the one with real power it seems. How much will DUP offer Sein Fein to cooperate? Half a billion? Love to be a fly on the wall on that one.Grin

howabout · 29/06/2017 09:27

Hester I think the opposite re the DUP money. There is a lot of pressure on SF to sort out Stormont because otherwise they risk being blamed for depriving NI of the decision making on spending the money - I don't think the money is dependent on the restoration of power sharing?

Quite impressed with Derek MacKay's efforts. Of course the bung to the DUP is chump change in comparison with the likely cost of sorting out the cladding issue in England (upwards of £2m per building x several 1,000s). Scotland has been spending £100 per head, out of the Holyrood budget, more on housing investment per year and as a result saving the rUK budget a corresponding amount in HB. (This is a constant issue with Devolution - the more Holyrood invests, the less Scotland tends to get from non-devolved areas. eg Disability benefits were devolved recently but tax credits are not so, if a person receives both, every £1 extra Holyrood grants rUK claws back at 41%)

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 09:29

Well apparently they get the billion and a half even if NI goes back to direct rule. Damn!

ClashCityRocker · 29/06/2017 09:31

Placemat King 👑 now going to catch up...

ElenaGreco123 · 29/06/2017 09:34

The Labour amendments to QS were so bland and respectful, I really can't see how the Tories could vote it down. Although I still haven't got over the article about fire sprinklers being unnecessary/too expensive in schools. Even Cruella de Ville would balk at that.

citroenpresse · 29/06/2017 09:40

Interesting detail on ConservativeHome from Francis Maude "It’s often forgotten that when Margaret Thatcher was first elected in 1979 she secured more votes proportionally from voters under 35 than from voters over 35."

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 09:42

As I said ElenaGreco the Tories just live their jobs and money, they will never vote for anything that might make peoples lives better, well unless its for themselves.

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 09:43

Thatcher was a demon in disguise.

HashiAsLarry · 29/06/2017 10:02

With regards to NI, the pressure is certainly on DUP more than SF. If the Stormont talks fail and NI goes back under Westminster rule the DUP pact with the Tories has massive implications for the GFA. It won't be seen as the Tories destroying it, more the DUP.

BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 10:08

Dont be downhearted. Change in afoot. It is slow and we must keep pushing, but as we say on the Trump threads this is going to be a marathon not and sprint and we will just have to hunker down and persist.

NHS chiefs soften 'brutal' cost-cutting plan after huge backlash
amp.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/29/nhs-chiefs-soften-brutal-cost-cutting-plan-after-huge-backlash

NHSI has also almost halved the amount of savings it hopes the 14 areas will deliver through the CEP from £470m to £250m, according to NHS sources and the Health Service Journal.

Mrsmartell08 · 29/06/2017 10:12

I hope so bigly
I hope so

howabout · 29/06/2017 10:13

In that case Brokenshire likely to go down the route of new elections for Stormont Hashi rather than direct rule? I am not sure SF would want that option because they did comparatively well last time due to anti DUP protest vote to the middle parties. The 2017 GE reversed that voting pattern and the renewed polarisation would likely carry through to Stormont?

RedPeppers · 29/06/2017 10:17

LH i don't know if you are a cynic.
I thought you were just a realist.:(

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 10:19

Maybe some tiny glimmer then. Off to podiatrist now, daughter coming with me this time and no one, but no one had better start on me in front of her, she's worse than a rotweiller on heat lol!Grin

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 29/06/2017 10:20

Jessica Elgot‏Verified account @jessicaelgot

Yesterday Jeremy Hunt said there was a consultation on NI women accessing abortions in England, in response to @stellacreasy @YvetteCooperMP

This morning Department of Health says still need time to clarify what that "consultation" meant... No one knew about it before!

MsHooliesCardigan · 29/06/2017 10:21

citroen That's really interesting about young people voting for Thatcher.
I am so pleased about the Hillsborough decision. Hillsborough is so symbolic and important. The corruption and lies went all the way to the top. Some of the testimonies are so moving- I remember one fan talking about Police trying to push fans back into the pens as they were trying to escape because football fans, especially Liverpool ones, were basically viewed as scum so people were all too ready to believe the lies.
Margaret Aspinall and Doreen Jones who both lost sons in the disaster have spoken about going to the Hillsborough gymnasium to identify the bodies and they were both told that they couldn't cuddle their sons because they were the property of the coroner. Blood alcohol levels were taken from all the victims including teenagers and a ten year old.
Those who lost loved ones through criminal negligence then had their grief compounded by being treated with contempt and having to listen to years of lies trying to blame Liverpool fans for the disaster.
The relatives were told to move on, Boris Johnson dubbed Liverpool 'self pity city'.
But the families, all of them ordinary working class people, refused to give up and they won.
Hillsborough is proof that ordinary people can get justice. I have so much respect for those families.