Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

Mirabelle my two dcs are bilingual as we speak french at home.
But they are bilingual as in able to have to a friendly conversation, not being able to go and study in France (yet).

So we have taken the decision to get a tutor for them both. They have 2 hours of french each every week so they can learn to write (spelling can be atrocious), write at a high level, use all the tenses etc etc.
It's a lot of money but I do believe it is essential atm so they can have the CHOICE to go where they want rather than being forced to do xxx.

They are also doing french at school. From whatbthey do, you couldn't rely on whatever they learn there to be able to then go to a foreign country to study/live. The level is quite low (even though the new curriculum means it will be better)

whenallissaidanddone hello and welcome!

In answer to your question, an opt-in solution (possibly paid) has been floated but I'm not sure if or how that will proceed. Personally, I doubt the UK government will permit it as it will serve to highlight the rights they have stripped from British citizens. Hopefully, I'm wrong...

I have a question. I regard myself as an EU citizen. I didn't chose to lose that. Is there a legal case to be made for me retaining that somehow? I seem to remember that being floated as an option a while ago.

There was a suggestion from the EU side of things that UK citizens could be conferred some sort of ancillary EU citizenship ... however it hasn't been progressed as far as I can see.

As I have repeatedly suggested, I think any attempt at such a move would be immediately rejected by the current Brexit brigade.

Remember: anyone who is not 100% behind whatever may come, is unpatriotic, and probably a traitor too.

It seems if you are a UK only citizen, then you are losing out in some way (whether you know it or not).

lessworried

I am truly staggered that you can't see parallels. Ireland was once united. Germany, although a much more recent country than Ireland, was once united. Political expediency split both, caused by civil or world war. Political expediency reunited one and as you say, the clue is in the name. Politics may yet reunite Ireland, or more worrying, lead to an outbreak of civil war again - which The Troubles were.

Re NI, I think the idea is that NI and the RoI were one country not that long ago. Enough that you can still find people who have lived in Ireland (as in RoI and NI together before they because two different countries)

However, if you were asking someone in NI if they are Irish (as in ROI), quite a few of them wouldn't be happy at all!

In the same way, the separation of east and west Germany might have been 'short' on paper but it doesn't mean that people felt they were part of the same country at all. Esp not after 50 years of propaganda on both sides which will have seen the other side branded as dangerous/to be careful about/will attack us etc....
WE see them as being the same, just German. But are they???

We forget also that Poland was pushed westwards after the war, so some elderly 'Poles' who have never moved from the town they were born in are no longer German.

Redpeppers that is a good idea, I have been mulling that over recently. I wish I had been brought up bilingual, would make things now a bit easier.

... And there are plenty of those who, like me, don't recognise 'northern Ireland' so don't call it that and don't take up British citizenship.

Though, not knowing much about East Germany, I don't know how many parallels there are with Ireland. There may be some.

Politics could re-unite Ireland and there could be a resumption of the troubles however that still has nothing whatsoever to do with the re-unification of Germany. The overwhelming majority of Germans in both East and West wanted it. Germany was divided because the East was captured by the Soviets and the West by Britain, America and France. There is literally no comparison.

There is literally no comparison.

There is no exact comparison, but you are rather wriggling from your earlier statement that they are one country because the 'clue is in the name', as it is in Ireland. There could easily become a majority in N Ireland who wish to reunite with the Republic, and then your argument holds even less water.

One way out of all this is to simply confer UK citizenship on all EU nationals in the UK.

This is a non-starter because some of the countries involved do not permit dual citizenship.

Actually the easy way out of this is the route proposed by the EU, which has the merit of extreme simplicity - all those present (both British in the EU, and EU in the U.K.) retain all existing rights, with those rights being guaranteed by a third party.

The UK proposal is more complicated, will struggle to cope with less simple cases, and is more open to abuse and bad faith and retrospective legislation by all or any of the countries concerned.

Oh dear, what did I start by mentioning East/West Germany ???

My suggestion was that the UK could just wave a wand and say "all EU citizens in the UK are now UK citizens" and then suggest the EU did the same with UK citizens in EU countries.

Obviously never going to happen, but in terms of actually thinking about it, I reckon I already deserve 50% of whatever fucknuts Davies is being paid.

It's already clear - less than two weeks into "negotiations" that the UK is pursuing some sort of shadow agenda. In the same way "austerity" was an ideological choice (bedroom tax, for example), "Brexit" is all about enforcing some sort of distorted ideology and fuck all to do with the well being of the UK and it's citizens.

Speaking of the bedroom tax, did people catch the reports that the DWP is going to insist Grenfell survivors who find themselves in bigger houses will have to pay the bedroom tax ?

when I expect though that the EU will at the very least roll out a scheme to attract the skills they need from the disaffected with what is happening in the U.K. Macron has already done that for US Scientists. Of course that is exactly what May should have done and been doing, we were just about attracting the brightest and the best in spite of her deterrent 70 page forms and restrictive immigration practises, but now the UK has become a very unattractive place to come to live and work.

My comment on the Handmaid's tale was only slightly ironic, one of the themes of that, aside from the misogyny manifested upthread, was do not believe it cannot get worse. At what point when the economy is failing because the UK has become such an unattractive place for both immigrants and those born here, and especially minorities, do the party currently clinging to power in an alliance with a deeply misogynist and intolerant party, stop people leaving?

I may be wrong, but I believe the point was that East and West Germany were separate states. They did not share citizenship. Following reunification, it was decided that a "German" citizenship would be bestowed upon all. The UK could decide to bestow UK citizenship upon all EU citizens residing here before Britain leaves the EU. Not everyone wants British citizenship of course, just the transfer of their current rights living here as EU citizens.

Thanks, Divided and Lurking.

I thought that might be the case. This is what is so saddening (and maddening) about the whole thing. I feel so powerless. At least if I chose to apply for citizenship elsewhere, I do so making choices about what I may have to give up (if I'm not able to retain both). But because of a decision based on the opinion of around 25% of the population last year, I feel I'm losing something that is a very important part of my make up and history.

Why does it have to be perceived as a patriotic choice anyway? Can't it be 'this and that' rather 'this but not that'?

and is more open to abuse and bad faith and retrospective legislation by all or any of the countries concerned.

All of which the UK has a proven track record of engaging in.

As with the polite "thanks, but no thanks" from the former Empire (ungrateful foreigner types - we never really trusted them anyway), there's a lot of UK "Great British" chickens returning home to roost.

If brexit leads to the end of the gfa, if indeed the actions of the Tories don't get there first, it's more than possible there'll be a majority pro reunification. Doesn't mean the British there'll be happy to accept a transfer of their nationality and all they've possibly know because the clue is in their name.

I think it's easy to do that in the EU for British living there misti
Harder to do in the uk if the uk is refusing the ECJ etc... because it means that eu citizens would have rights above British citizens.

In effect, the sticking point is NOT giving people the same rights etc... Its what is around it and in particular Courts etc....

As an eu citizens, the only way forward I can see for myself is tongettbhe British citizenship. I'm lucky because I can get the dual citizenship so wont loose my first (and this will also allow me to move as I wish in the future).
It would also protect my pensions and my rights in the uk.

I can't imagine the Uk ever accepting the EU proposals.

GraceGrape

Thank you !

One of the unsung modern miracles of the 1990s was how West Germany managed to integrate with East - complete with currency.

The UK would struggle to integrate financially with Rockall.

Is suggesting people have more children and the government make it more affordable by scrapping the child benefit cap misogynistic ?

Why does it have to be perceived as a patriotic choice anyway?

Because that's the drum the Leavers are beating for the less discriminating thinkers amongst us.

Of course, a famous Englishman once remarked that patriotism was the last refuge of the scoundrel. But he probably wasn't proper English anyway.

Or is having a declining population continent wide propped up by immigration desirable ?

LH most countries make changes to immigration law from time to time. And while the UK is an offender in this regard, there are EU countries with even less favourable attitudes to immigration. The EU proposal protects both EU citizens AND Britons.

Tbh I'm not going to waste any more time on the UK proposal as it plainly won't be acceptable to the EU for a number of perfectly good and very obvious reasons. Barrier is just going to give a Gallic shrug and a firm "non" and that will be the end of it. Either the UK govt will climb down or negotiations will grind to a halt.

ron I don't think the current party in owner has any interest at all in the economy as such or retaining the bright intelligent people etc...

You don't need that if what you are aiming for is a country whose standards will be aligned with India regarding lifestyles, living wages, NHS etc...

Barrier = Barnier. My iPad doesn't speak Brexit.