Westministenders: The Zombie PM

[RedToothBrush]

Back from the dead, May carries on whilst the vultures circle.

She had tried to out smart her rivals by running of to the palace to tell the queen she could form a government before they could act.

Definitely she stood and pretended nothing had changed. Except everything had. The wrath of her party was unleashed and there was open revolt. She has been summoned to appear before men in grey suits tomorrow at 5pm to hear their verdict.

How do she decide to make amends and reach out to moderate Tories? By sleeping with the DUP. And appointing Gove to her Cabinet.

How long will this last? How long can it last?

And here it goes what you all predicted:
Davis says 80% of the electorate voted for parties that want to leave the EU. The parties in favour of staying, the Lib Dems and the SNP, had setbacks.

... and in these very threads I stated why I was so nervous about voting Labour ... I didn't want my vote to be taken as tacitly supporting Leave.

If I believed we had to put up with DD for much longer, I might get angry.

""However spokesmen for both men denied any suggestion they were on maneuvers and suggested they are “completely” behind Mrs May

Makes sense, you need to get behind someone before you can stab them in the back

This made my morning lol

On a more sinister note the picture of Gove and Trump Red posted on the previous thread makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.

Gove seems like an evil little dictator, even worse than May.

If nothing else, the post ref world have brought me the lib dem press office twitter.

David Lammy had a little rant about dd and his insistence we've all voted for hard brexit saying they asked for a mandate and didn't get it

Ldpo replied telling him to also tell John McDonnell

Just marking to read when I have time and am not desperate or a wee before I take the dogs out

Shows how the election is affecting everyone, my dds round laying bricks the final touch to a little zen garden and they are arguing. One says to the other who us being bossy "who do you think you are?Theresa May?

flippinada I heard that too, brilliant if true.

Also that apparently DD was pushing for election along with May, which calls his judgement into question too.

Lurking with you 100% there. Nervous of JC being a limp remainer and will be v. angry if JMcD continues to spout something that is most definitely not (NO Single Market) in the manifesto. They've only stated that they want the 'benefits of the Single Market'. In order to keep them, maybe they'll need to accept it. If JC adopts TM posture and ignores electorate and insists on loyal cabal without building a real consensus, will be fantastically depressing.

On a more sinister note the picture of Gove and Trump Red posted on the previous thread makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.

Yes,yes this.Gove is really troubling me ( not in person thank the Lord).

If it is true and there is now a consensus of a shift towards more open exit terms then why appoint Gove? Is it a sop or is it like a double bluff?

I don't post much on Red's brilliant thread as I'm awe of the knowledge of many posters on here. One thing I do know a little about is EU legislation. Contrary to popular myth the EU does not have very far reaching legislative powers at all. There are very few limited areas where member states share a joint say.The main shared stuff is Environment, Agriculture, Food and pharma etc.

(We already have complete autonomy over pretty much everything Education. Fiscal policy. Public expenditure. Monetary policy.All tax. Border control and security. Pensions. Welfare. Defence. Military Intelligence. Development cooperation and humanitarian aid. All local government. National policing. Crime. Media and press regulation. Family law. etc etc.)

So environment is important. It is a main area in which new policy could be forged, it could become frighteningly unregulated outside the EU.Appointing leading Leavers first of all Leadsome, and then Gove to this position is a very bad sign to me. Apart from the Negotiating team, it's surely a very significant appointment, in terms of ability to make changes where it was joint before? It makes me very sceptical that the appointment of Damian Green can be taken a heartfelt attempt to reach out to Remain Tories or signifies a desire for a softer or more open exit.

Gove derides experts, is a climate change denier like Trump,wanted to remove Climate Change from the National curriculum, approves the badger cull and supports removal of the fox hunting ban.
Is there any chance his appointment and returning him to the cabinet could be sort of like a bluff to emphasise the awfulness of an unregulated approach to the environment? A sort of 'is this what you really want' message?

"but i expet a full change of what brexit means"

Which is why the tautology mantra Brexit is brexit is so powerful

It can basically mean anything.

Place marking

@Sostenuto - very perceptive children you have there!

@OneScotch I know, it pleases me greatly

@Citroen and @Lurking I too voted Labour and am concerned by McDonnell's comments. I'm hoping they don't lose their momentum (lower case used advisedly) and build on their achievements.

To be honest, Gove is a side show distraction. Probably deliberately.

I really can't see us getting to Xmas without another election.

Given the uncharted waters we are now it, it;'s best to be cautious.

The next few days - until the 19th - are a phoney "all be over by Xmas" war. There's not much more to really debate (although I'm sure that won't stop anyone ) until we start to know what TM wants to put in the Queens speech, and more importantly, what she will have had to promise the DUP to get their backing.

From my limited understanding (not being Scottish, or in Scotland) Ruth Davidson is bouyed up by a distinct Soft-if-we-can't-have-no Brexit sentiment. It's not clear how much leeway she would have on that position before she is under threat herself.

The whole UK government is going to be have to be a series of spinning plates for the next five years. History, and those who lived through it suggest it's simply not possible.

If we do descend into another General Election, there's a possibility that the electorate might be swayed by the proposal of second EU referendum. Ironically Brexiteers might be forced into supporting it, as the possibility of no Brexit without it is very real because the bottom line is: If you want Brexit. You need a government that can deliver it.

Which we patently haven't got.

Part of the problem (again one of Theresa May, and the Brexit camps entire making) is the dishonesty of pretending Brexit was just another issue for parliament to debate on. Along with Daylight Saving Time, and Free School Meals. Maybe the truth is sinking in now ?

The arrogance of the Tories in assuming that - implied in the fact they decided not to hold a General Election after 23rd June, so that we could chose the sort of government we wanted to handle Brexit is why we are now here. And if the public can't decide who to negotiate Brexit, maybe we just can't have it ?

@Citroen and @Lurking I too voted Labour and am concerned by McDonnell's comments.

Well, this is a democracy. Did you get a Labour MP ?

www.writetothem.com/

Write to them, and tell them that. If enough people do, they'll have to react.

Lurking with you 100% there. Nervous of JC being a limp remainer and will be v. angry if JMcD continues to spout something that is most definitely not (NO Single Market) in the manifesto. They've only stated that they want the 'benefits of the Single Market'. In order to keep them, maybe they'll need to accept it. If JC adopts TM posture and ignores electorate and insists on loyal cabal without building a real consensus, will be fantastically depressing

Totally agree with you and Lurking. The ambiguity in the manifesto over the single market and customs union was ultimately why I didn't vote Labour despite being a lifelong Labour voter (voted LD instead - really good local candidate).

It could go either way. It's possible tha McD and Corb bow to general pressure for a soft Brexit - they are very much leaders who follow their followers. But they may stay true to Lexit roots, ignore their MPs as they did over Corbyn's leadership, ignore the metropolitan elite and stick with what they believe their grass roots Momentum Lexit followers want. It really depends which followers they decide to follow.

We could just get a left-wing replay of May.

Andrew Lilico @ andrew_lilico
If the Lords rejects the Brexit deal we'll simply be exiting with no deal. The Lords can't make us join the EEA.

Roel @RoelD_
Do you think if public opinion shifted, there wouldnt be a HoC majority to be found for Ref-2?

Andrew Lilico @ andrew_lilico
Only if we want violent riots & possible leave-the-EU terrorist movement. If winning votes doesn't get things done, folk'll try alternatives

Roel @RoelD_
So if there would be a second referendum and it would result in a Remain win, it wouldnt be legitimate?

Andrew Lilico @ andrew_lilico
We voted to leave. We must now leave. We cld hv a 2nd referendum on re-joining later, if EU'd hv us back.

Sam Freedman @ samfr
Myth developing that Lab did well solely because students turned out. Helped in some seats but was 25-44yr olds who made the most difference
Tories need to find a way to speak to young professionals and parents not just kids.

Benjamin Lauderdale @ benlauderdale
Exactly right. According to the YouGov model, something like 30% of 2015 Con voters in these age brackets defected, mostly the remainers

David Allen Green @ davidallengreen
1. So unprepared for their victory, and so unaware of what to do next, Brexiteers fell for the May approach. Nodding along, with each error.
2. Any criticism of May was "remoaning". She had to be defended without question, all along she was making a successful Brexit less likely.
3. So protected was May from serious criticism, because of Brexit partisanship, mistakes were getting bigger. Hubris.
4. Until she made the biggest mistake possible: triggering Article 50's two year period then calling an election.
5. That mistake did not come out of the blue. It was just the latest misjudgment in a sequence of unforced errors she was getting away with.
6. If Brexiteerers had spent less time telling critics to "get over it" they could have checked May's clumsy tactics. She was real problem.
7. Brexit may be beyond any politician. No PM could do it. But.
8. Having a realistic, open and collaborative approach to a complex task is the fundamental requirement.

Now perhaps too late.

/ends

I should say what they see as the 'metropolitan elite'*

*despite Corbyn being one himself.

e.g. (although cut/pasted messages aren't allowed ...)

Congratulations on you recent win.

I would just like to let you know that while I voted Labour, I felt forced into doing so.

My primary goal was to ensure we did not endure a Tory majority, and to that end, I felt a vote for you was best.

However, I am fundamentally opposed to leaving the EU, and am keen that you - and the Labour party - are aware of that.

In the next election - whenever that is - I may not be able to support a Labour candidate who does not wish the UK to remain in the EU

You want May to stay folks. Yeah I know.

Labour Remain voters are somewhat hostages.

If they don't vote labour then they split the vote. And get Tory majority next time.

I actually think that Davis and co might be realising this and might push for an election in the end.

They will push hard Brexit in the knowledge that if the government collapses due to a liberal revolt they might get a second bite.

Ashcroft was talking last night about how in the past they made early selection of Election candidates. If you get say Gove in charge, they might do this and quietly try and deselect liberals.

This off course would also mean more wasted time as the a50 clock ticks and no preps are made even for a crash exit.

This still could get very nasty if Corbyn and McDonnell don't change tact imo.

It's possible tha McD and Corb bow to general pressure for a soft Brexit - they are very much leaders who follow their followers. But they may stay true to Lexit roots

It's entirely possible for a leader to have a different view to that which their party takes, and still be efficient in carrying out their parties will.

Despite very publicly campaigning for a YES vote in 1975, Mrs Thatcher was always EuroSceptic to say the least.

And one thing - which in the past was a weakness, but which may yet turn out to be a massive plus - is that if nothing else, Corbyn appears to be principled. I would rather have a principled opponent handling Brexit than a lickspittling "ally".

We're also back to where we started on the 22nd June. Quite a lot of people who voted Remain were not necessarily uncritical of the EU. I'd be the first to admit it's a bit of a mess in some places. But - like democracy - it's better than any of the alternatives.

However nervous 'what Labour do next', I am more certain that it is based on a democratic basis, and that whatever JC or JmcD say, there is still a mechanism by which Labour policy has to be agreed. And that younger voters seem to be prepared to activate and do something about it. I'd like May to be on her bed of nails for a bit, for the hopelessness of the Tories to be exposed a bit more. Get off the telly and onto sorting out the Queen's speech amendments.

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/06/07/uncosted-the-brexit-black-hole-in-corbyn-and-may-s-manifesto
Uncosted: The Brexit black hole in Corbyn and May's manifestos

Ian Dunt @ iandunt
Good time to bring this up again: Leaving customs union expected to cost £25bn a year, leaving single market £36bn

This is what liberals on all sides should be pushing for with every possible breathe.

This is what forces Corbyn to change tact.

Ian Dunt @ iandunt
Irony of hard Brexit approach: You put your whole project at risk by being unable to budge. But more pragmatism & you'd be in better place.
First rule of politics: Listen to your critics. It'll help you defeat them.

@Lurking I have an SNP MP who are pro remain anyway but I will certainly be feeding back to my local party.

I'm not sure how easy it is to shut JMcD up. I did think, otoh, the labour manifesto showed Corbyn was able to meet some middle ground with the more centrists in the party and pull themselves round the horse shoe from the bottom up to somewhat right of left left but left of centre left. So I'm sure there's some scope with Jc. Maybe not much but some.

The big step will be how the plp act now. It would be for the best for labour if they used their might not to challenge Corbyn again, but shut down the voices of JMcD et al.