Westministenders: The Zombie PM

[RedToothBrush]

Back from the dead, May carries on whilst the vultures circle.

She had tried to out smart her rivals by running of to the palace to tell the queen she could form a government before they could act.

Definitely she stood and pretended nothing had changed. Except everything had. The wrath of her party was unleashed and there was open revolt. She has been summoned to appear before men in grey suits tomorrow at 5pm to hear their verdict.

How do she decide to make amends and reach out to moderate Tories? By sleeping with the DUP. And appointing Gove to her Cabinet.

How long will this last? How long can it last?

One reason I think Corbyn/Labour have done well is because they are not Blair (tainted over Iraq) and not New Labour (Tory Lite). Hence I feel that Clegg is tainted over Coalition/tuition fees, and as yet there is no person who is clearly not him or his policies.

I am 100% sure that there was a lot of tactical voting happening to get the Tories out, not just over Brexit, but over austerity and the NHS in particular. There are still huge numbers of moderate Tories who are now unrepresented. I wish the LibDems would go after their votes with much more zeal than they do, instead of constantly going for wavering Labour voters. I hope that Brexit and this election will eventually wreck the Tory party, and that we can get something else in place.

Sorry if this has been posted before but Clive Lewis is floating thecorigressive alliance re defeating the Tories

I would like to see a LibLab coalition

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/13/corbyn-could-have-been-pm-with-progressive-votes-lewis-and-lucas

Isn't it time for another remain march?

bigly - I'm saying that the electorate as a whole doesn't really understand LD policies. That may or may not mean that there are Labour voters who might have preferred the LD policy proposals - there are certainly lots that chime with both the further right and the further left wing main parties, but also plenty that probably wouldn't get mainstream traction right now (eg drugs policies)

Loving the legalisation of drugs....Im from the acid house generation. I think it would be pretty popular with many younger than me...from what I have seen

If the Lib Dems are so grown up, practical and clever, why did Clegg et al* "underestimate how ruthless the Tories would be" in coalition? Just not paying attention?

Not half as clever as they think they are.

*bar Charles Kennedy

I'm saying that the electorate as a whole doesn't really understand LD policies

I think you can say that about all the parties. Most voters do not read or take the time to consider policies in detail for ay party. There are certainly plenty of people who have not read or understood the labour policies. This is not unique to the lib Dems. They are just even worse then the other two are PR that reaches these people.

I think the lib dems are sensible and pragmatic. Unfortunately that is wry easy to translate by both sides into unprincipled. I think the lib dems in 2010 were genuinely surprised by how much their pragmatism was portrayed as betrayal.

David Steel's son used to gather signatures for cannabis legalisation at various techno clubs in Edinburgh I used to frequent ever, one called Sativa in particular.

That's before he got sent down for growing it. He said he grew it because he thought buying it from street dealers could harm his dad's reputation.

Fair enough. But not realizing that running a high profile legalization campaign and growing it at home makes you a bit of a target isn't. Especially thinking that no-one in authority would be ruthless enough to do something about that...

Oh, bit of a theme that isn't it.

I loved the election spy comedy. One of the Lib dems just accepted defeat saying you getbused ti it when you give up hope...its easier lol

Red what are we meant to be inferring from that graph, I've looked and looked and just can't work it out .....

On that note some interesting snippets from the YouGov analysis of the vote

Class is no longer the dividing line in British politics - ABC1 and C2DE vote for any party is about the same…

whereas age matters much more - Britain’s young overwhelmingly vote Labour, while older Brits vote Tory

Working people were more likely to vote Lab than Con - retired people were the only group that backed the Tories

Really pleased to see traction growing today for a proposed cross party Brexit group.

JC getting a standing ovation in the HoC...! Has that ever happened before?

Artisan the penny needs to drop on the fact that pragmatic looks a lot like self-interested. It would be sensible and clever to face that reality.

During the new labour years I voted either lib dem or green as did many people I know. I think there was a fundamental lack of understanding of the motivations of the people who voted for them by the lib dem leadership. They clearly were surprised by the reaction to the coalition, they shouldn't have been though.

I think there was a fundamental lack of understanding of the motivations of the people who voted for them by the lib dem leadership. They clearly were surprised by the reaction to the coalition, they shouldn't have been though.

Indeed not. A significant part of the vote was tactical from Labour to keep the Tories out. The LibDems blew it and went and put them in. I never fully bought the argument that if they hadn't done there would have needed to be another election and the Tories would have walked it. Harold Wilson had a minority Government in 1974. He called an election and ended up with a majority of 4, which dogged the rest of that Parliament. Who is to say something similar wouldn't have happened in 2010?

One thing the Referendum and this election should have taught us, is "Don't take the electorate for granted."

The LD policy on drugs is probably the easiest to use to understand why non-dogmatic (i.e., evidence-based) policies just don't work for the UK.

If the purpose of a policy is to ensure the least possible harm, then legalising - maybe even medically supplying the drugs we think of as "dangerous" is almost certainly the best approach. Fewer deaths from goodness-knows-what. No criminal involvement. And a direct connection between the addict, and the health service to act as a constant "pull" away from addiction.

Instead we have (from both sides) polices which have failed by any and every measure you can think of. (Except continued funding for anti-drugs initiatives). And the ludicrous sight of alcohol, tobacco and caffeine having to be explicitly excluded from the Psychoactive substances act ...

Now just recall the hysteria a few weeks ago when the MSM "discovered" what the LD policy on drugs was had been for 30 years.

Having an empire doesnt have the same meaning in france and in the uk.
In france, its nearly seen as shameful to have had an empire (see the comment from Macron at the start of the campaign when he said that what happened in the colonies was a crime against humanity.) There is no shame at all about colonies in the uk, quite the opposite!

So its having or not an empire, its about how you see yourself, above everyone else.

Another that, for me, is quite telling is the difference in reaction when you talk abut having a strong majority in parliament.
Here its seen as essential.
In France, where Macron is set to get the full majority, its seen as a hindrance and a source of problems. The worry is that it will stop the different pov to be expressed in parliament inlc the fact that whinthin the party there will be some difference of opinions that wont be aired in Parliament (each party has one person representing their pov during the debate)
Its the difference between been used to a system where its my way or high way. Ive got the majority, I will do whatever I want regardless of the others. Compare to a system where people are used to share power and have coalition and negociations are seen as good rather than a problem.

Fwiw, I think the major issue with Brexit is along those lines too. Britain wants to impose their pov. You win or you looose. So space for negociations and amendments etc... The EU is as far as you can be from that and they expect negociations and both sides mellowing some positions to get to a consensus.

LH - your posting reminds me of David Steele's Abortion Bills. Again the approach was to do the least possible harm. He managed to get those through. Perhaps the same will come with Drugs legislation?

ah what will happens when Brenda dies and the commonwealth tell the UK to stick their non mutual agreements? Muttering in the Caribbean about visas etc already

I know pragmatism can look like self- interest but I think the lib dems are held to a higher standard than either of the other main parties have been for a while.

TBH I think Corbyn has been phenomenally lucky and this election could not have gone better for him - he didn't win. He doesn't have to get into power and deal with two faced colleagues and civil servants or the media waiting for the next fuck up or a bullying president of another country. He can stay being the messiah and not having to compromise.

UKIP also changed the ground rules. That small a party shouldn't have had that much influence. The lib dems wrongly believed that compromise and working together was best. Instead they should probably have forced the tories to be more central in a minority government.

If the Lib Dems are so grown up, practical and clever,...
It's perfectly reasonable lol three and still be taken for a ride.
Many people who voted leave sit in all three camps.

The physical structure of our House of Commons also dictates a two party approach. I gather it needs building work doing. Maybe if the HoC decamped elsewhere for the time being and then had a House arranged in a horseshoe, or semi - circular shape as many Parliaments are, it would begin to break down the adversarial approach?

Plus a PR system. (Even if that let a rump of UKIPers in.)

Cross party Brexit group is a poison chalice. Tories know what sharing a platform with them did to Lib Dems nationally and Labour in Scotland. They are now keen to get JC to sip from that cup.

It'd be the same tactic they used with Lib Dems over tuition fees- embed the pain of betrayal in the young. Divide and rule 101.

Telegraph is showing photos of Gove in running gear again. Don't underestimate his hand in Scottish Tory revival. His adoptive parents are from North-East fishing stock- he knows very well that NE Scotland. only ever went SNP due to Tory betrayal over EU. And that as soon as Tories backed away from EU that NE Scotland would go blue again.

Michael and Ruth have a lot in common, not least his former speechwriter, Gordon Hector, who is now head of research at the Scottish Conservatives.

YY to a PR system.
Its not right that there is such a huge difference in number if MPs when there is only 2% difference in the number of votes.

However, I can also see how none here will want that. Proper PR means the need to form working coalitions....

UKIP also changed the ground rules. That small a party shouldn't have had that much influence.

Heavily aided and abetted by the Mail, Express and Telegraph and latterly the BBC. Without them screaming their support (the first three), and constant TV appearances (the latter) who knows how far Farage/UKIP would have got?

The lib dems wrongly believed that compromise and working together was best. Instead they should probably have forced the tories to be more central in a minority government.
Clegg himself has stated that showing early doors he wasn't interested in getting into power contests was where it went wrong. If he'd partaken in some early pissing contests - my words not his I hasten to add - they may have taken him more seriously.