Westministenders: The Zombie PM

[RedToothBrush]

Back from the dead, May carries on whilst the vultures circle.

She had tried to out smart her rivals by running of to the palace to tell the queen she could form a government before they could act.

Definitely she stood and pretended nothing had changed. Except everything had. The wrath of her party was unleashed and there was open revolt. She has been summoned to appear before men in grey suits tomorrow at 5pm to hear their verdict.

How do she decide to make amends and reach out to moderate Tories? By sleeping with the DUP. And appointing Gove to her Cabinet.

How long will this last? How long can it last?

I don't want another referendum or a GE, I want the grown ups to sort themselves out and start governing.

Ever since the 1980s (if not before, but I can only speak to what I personally experienced) it's been clear the Tory party had a massive fault line down the middle that said "Europe".

I recall discussing with friends at the time that Labour had demonstrated that divided parties are unelectable. Sadly, although it was probably for the best, Labours in-fighting was actually out-fighting as it became very public. Militant, commitment to unilateral nuclear disarmament, the unions, and Clause IV all had to be played out in public.

Even as that was happening I was waiting for the Tory civil war over Europe - the early 90s being a nadir (Redwood, and John Majors "bastards").

It never came. Clearly the Tories were either astute enough to watch Labour and actively not make the same mistakes, or the composition and constitution of the Tory party is better suited to hiding divisions.

The most annoying thing, is I haven't really heard a reason why some Tories feel that Europe is so ... non-Tory (not just the EU - some were very against the EEC when there was no way of knowing what it would be come). You just get the same old bollocks about straight bananas, control of borders, and sovereignty.

To be fair I know at the time a few Tories did express concern that the UK would end up closer to Europe at the expense of the Commonwealth. But that was 1975 when we had to watch a quota quickie at the cinema before the feature. For myself, the Commonwealth means very little, I'm afraid. I certainly feel more European than whatever I would have to feel to call myself a "Commonwealther" ...

The lack of rational explanations makes it border on religious ....

RedToothBrush

Notice anything?

I hope Labour party HQ see that the same way I did.

I've already put my MP on notice that my vote for them was not a vote for Brexit.

Predictably, that smarmy arsewipe Gove has read all Labour votes for Brexit. He can fuck right off.

Farron has gorton on board with cross party brexit talks

Why did we have to go through all this before people started getting sensible?

Like the graph red

The thing I don't really understand is why people are talking about a new centre party that is pro Remain (or soft Brexit) when one already exists. Why don't they just defect to the Lib Dems?

That kinda happened before Mango, hence the Dem part of Lib Dems. They didn't maintain vote share for that long- so it's not a good career strategy.

And, like it or not, the Lib Dems are a tarnished brand. Especially among voters under thirty who are educated. That was Cameron's evil genius- sow the betrayal in the core and future core. Genius, but obvious and avoidable.

47000 people going to TM's leaving drinks! 😉

www.google.co.uk/amp/m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_593f90f0e4b0e84514edeeed/amp

One of the running jokes themes of UK politics - certainly in my years - has been the disconnect between people saying they'd like a centre party, but then not actually voting for one. Mainly because the UK (or it may just be England) seems to prefer dogma to common sense.

By definition, a Left or a Right leaning party will pursue policies based on dogma.

I'd be surprised if even the people posting here could get behind all the LibDems policies ....

Yes, I'd like the grownups to sort themselves out and start governing too.

But no sign of that.

I'd like Labour to offer a Remain policy and to win the next GA.

I also let my MP know that an advisory referendum and a year of war rhetoric have not made me a leaver.

Ye gods, how has a once formidable political machine been reduced to this ?

No-one wants to be associated with Brexit Armageddon. Fall out from that is the kind of thing could take a political party out for good.

One of the running jokes themes of UK politics - certainly in my years - has been the disconnect between people saying they'd like a centre party, but then not actually voting for one

And also the pattern that Billy Connolly noted of 'talking left but voting right'.

One of the running jokes themes of UK politics - certainly in my years - has been the disconnect between people saying they'd like a centre party, but then not actually voting for one. Mainly because the UK (or it may just be England) seems to prefer dogma to common sense.

By definition, a Left or a Right leaning party will pursue policies based on dogma.

Its too easy to buy into the Corbyn v May thing... how many people thought for themselves and decided to just buy into that narrative (who creates that btw?) and only act in a herd mentality and do what everyone else is doing.

The best example of that is simply looking at the result from the previous election and then voting against the thing they don't like rather than having the courage to vote for what they like based on policy and its merits. Instead they are much more motivated by things like personality.

I do think this country is particularly driven by a need to follow the crowd: we are much more faddy and moved by fashion than practicality. Practicality isn't really something that is celebrated as a trait. Its thought of as 'boring'.

Boring politicians are not thought of well here. We want the celebrity. Which says a lot about our celebrity driven culture.

Macron is probably the real big except to the rule.

Again, all very much down to the media in the UK.

But then who is to say that we don't do the same as France in 6 years time. After Brexarmageddon, the Tories fuck it up so bad but then Corbyn gets in and then fails to deliver meaning everyone goes FUCK THIS SHIT and votes for a brand new centre party who is full of experts in a desperation to sort out the car crash.

The problem with many of the Lib Dem policies is that they are a bit too clever to connect with the average voter. I don't mean that the electorate is stupid, just that most voters aren't terribly interested in politics, and only really take an interest when things directly impact them and / or when there is an election. Hence the previous importance of the media in translating policies and manifesto commitments into something more palatable. Unfortunately the Lib Dem policies don't lend themselves very well to this process, and require a lot more intellectual engagement to understand.

For example, when I was reading David Laws' defence of university tuition fees in his account of the coalition, his arguments made complete sense and if I had been handed a ballot paper right there and then I would have voted for fees - maybe even higher fees. But now, a year or two on I would struggle to articulate his rationale or why it is a progressive way to fund higher education...

Our local lib dem secretary said a big problem the Libs have is that they often taken the grown up route, and there's nothing sexy or enthusing with that. He has a point there.

Olennas I agree. They tend to be evidence based. The net result is they don't always seem logical. Their drugs policy is the best example. There are others.

Must say some of the Lib Dem proposals on housing should be nicked by whoever.

I guess the main purpose of the lib dems is to inspire thinking on policy. They have a place if that happens (and it does).

I do note that the Times called the LD manifesto "A exercise in thinking". I think this is high praise and does suggest that the manifesto had real promise in practice.

Then The Times went ahead and backed the Conservatives. I think we know why that is, ultimately. Its wrinkly and Australian

Why is Gove getting so much coverage today? It really irritates me...

The most annoying thing, is I haven't really heard a reason why some Tories feel that Europe is so ... non-Tory (not just the EU - some were very against the EEC when there was no way of knowing what it would be come). You just get the same old bollocks about straight bananas, control of borders, and sovereignty.

I was going to ask you what you thought the reasons were. Delusions of Empire would account for some of it, but not all. France and Spain both had huge empires and don't seem to be so wedded to them still, although Spain lost its empire about 100-150 years before ours went. Perhaps being occupied as in France or having a post Empire Civil War as Spain, somehow changed their outlook?

Umm... Are you actually suggesting that people who voted labour just didn't read the lib dem stuff properly or of course we would all have voted for them? I find this a bit patronising (and I voted lib dem as a tactical vote). I am not particularly anti-liberal dem, but I am aware of their policies and I am just naturally inclined to be more left leaning because they are principles I believe in. It is not just because I haven't understood the lib Dems properly.

Did someone upthread mention that it's actually NOT free movement of people, but free movement of workers (and students?). This needs to be explored. Fundamental difference. Anyone know the facts?

There are lots of existing options to limit movement we haven't exercised. We could have pressed pause for 3 years on immigration from new coutries joining the EU (most countries bar us did, if we had we probably wouldn't have gotten to referendum point).

There is no need to allow "benefit tourism" (although don't think it exists to the extent the right wing press make out) but policing that would have taken work our end (probably identity cards), and we have cut the public sector to the extent we don't have the infrastructure to do that work without major change.

All that said, I think a lot of people who voted for Brexit did so because they are explicitly opposed to workers coming here, not just people. It's true that some people were worried about benefit tourism but a lot of people think that e.g. low wage growth is at least in part due to an influx of workers from EU countries. That anger probably won't just go away.

Hmm I think Tories hate the EU because no one outside the UK gives a shit what they think or are.....and slowly slowly no one gives a shit here too