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Brexit

Westministenders – 10 days to go

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/05/2017 11:48

The Maynifesto is out (lets be honest here; other Manifestos are just exercises in dreaming). The rumours of what will happen post Election are in full swing.

The Conservatives are ‘relaunching’ their campaign after Theresa May’s single handed attempt at throwing the election, has needed an intervention.

Yet the reality is that May will win. And win comfortably, increasing her majority. Talk of a Corbyn surge is just that. Talk. He still is more than 5% behind and the excitement about how the gap has closed is getting carried away. Indeed it only helps the Conservatives to get their vote out. Corbyn also started from such a dreadful position, it just makes the effect look more dramatic than it really is and May was always going to struggle to get much more support after the local election peak.

The thing is none of the political parties are covering themselves in glory. No one is offering what people want. In terms of voters not being impressed by their leadership, I don’t think many are really happy and are just going for the best available option out of a particular bad crop. It does not bode well for the future regardless of who wins. We should be worried about the quality of debate and our representatives regardless of who we end up voting for.

Come election night there are going to be some particularly shocking results. The idea that there is a national trend is not right. This election is highly localised in nature. Which will result in these surprises to outsiders but perhaps not locals.

June 9th will make for a lot of soul searching I suspect. For all three parties. There will be leadership questions that remain unanswered and need to be resolved. There are still massive political divides in parties. Heads will roll and need to be replaced. Expectations and the reality have been out of line for all three in one way or another.

Yet all of this is a side show to an extent. Whilst we all scrabble around trying to work it out amongst ourselves, the rest of the world moves forward without us. And the clock ticks.

Merkel has set the tone for the next round of Brexit. It is regarded by the German political elite as ‘Trumpandbrexit’. We are part of the same phenomenon even though many see it through different eyes in this country. This lack of awareness of how we are perceived outside our own walls is something we will face head on at some point and it won’t be good.

Trump himself is up to his neck in scandal. And has risked our safety as a direct result. May might have held her hand but that relationship does not seem to be going well for us. We are between a rock and a hard place and are drifting out to see.

Global Britain has never seemed so lonely and isolated. The rosy future we were promised, becomes ever more a distant dream rather than a dawn of a new age.

Reality will get us in the end.

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Peregrina · 30/05/2017 15:48

After all, why should Scotland be able to get out of it when the rest of us are suffering ?

Because the Scots voted to Remain, whilst England and Wales voted Leave?

BigChocFrenzy · 30/05/2017 16:02

Grifone The Richard North posts wrt Ireland:
www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86473
www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86474

Mistigri · 30/05/2017 16:05

DH just back from visiting his elderly parents in the north Midlands. Middle class, comfortable, but from working class Catholic roots. Surprisingly, they are voting Labour - LDs not competitive in their constituency. Very low opinion of May, not big fans of Corbyn but not scared of him despite the media's best efforts.

They still get peeved when people assume they voted leave (they are from a very leave-voting demographic).

BluePeppers · 30/05/2017 16:08

After all, why should Scotland be able to get out of it when the rest of us are suffering ?

Because Brexit isn't the only reason why Scotland might want to get out of the UK. apart from the fact they voted to Remain anyway

RedToothBrush · 30/05/2017 16:08

www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e
After Brexit: Let the haggling over treaties begin

FT research reveals that at least 759 agreements with 168 countries must be renegotiated just for the UK to stand still

On Brexit day, that will all fall away. By law Britain will overnight be excluded from those EU arrangements with “third countries”, entering the equivalent of a legal void in key parts of its external commercial relations.

No deal is better than a bad deal. Keep repeating that whilst you read the article.

There are:
295 Trade Deals. (Bilateral deals and the countries whose approval is needed to recreate multilateral arrangements)
202 Regulatory co-operation (Everything from antitrust to data sharing)
69 Fisheries (Access waters or sustainable stocks)
65 Transport (Mainly airline services)
49 Customs (Controls on goods transport)
45 Nuclear (Fuel, parts and know-how)
34 Agriculture (All things food)

Still repeating No deal is better than a bad deal?

While Brexit is often cast as an affair between Brussels and London, in practice Britain’s exit will open more than 750 separate time-pressured mini-negotiations worldwide, according to Financial Times research. And there are no obvious shortcuts: even a basic transition after 2019 requires not just EU-UK approval, but the deal-by-deal authorisation of every third country involved.

The article compares it with becoming a new country and starting from scratch as the closest comparison to the scale of the task.

And this isn't it all. They don't include opt-in accords at the UN and WTO, some narrow agreements relating to environment, health, research and science nor some UK bilateral deals outside the EU framework which make reference to EU law.

No deal is better than a bad deal. No deal is better than a bad deal. No deal is better than a bad deal. No deal is better than a bad deal.
No deal is better than a bad deal. No deal is better than a bad deal.

It is just as well that 'No deal is better than a bad deal' seeing as we have so few negotiators, many without experience, and so little time to do it all in.

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/05/2017 16:14

Lh Some unionist posters on other threads (not our civilised ones !) are very aggressively against Scottish Independence, often demonising NS as some kind of monster - there is real hate for her.

I've even seen her and the SNP compared to the Nazi Party and terrorists.
Ridiculous hysteria
She is a talented politician, but her party has only risen to prominence due to the arrogance, cruelty and / or staggering incompetence of the main UK party leaders since 1980.
i.e. it's their own fault if they lose Scotland

howabout · 30/05/2017 16:18

Bigchoc I agree with much of what you say re Scottish Independence but I think it has much more to do with what the Labour Party does than the Tories. The shift from 1997 has been from Labour to SNP firstly in disgust at Blairism and then in further disgust at Scottish Labour acting as his poodle in Holyrood. There were also a fair few Tory tarts prepared to vote SNP to mitigate the 40+ Scottish Labour MPs, but who have now peeled back to the Conservatives. Imho it has little to do with "England imposing Tory rule" per the mantra but more to do with the perception of Labour as Tory lite - JC is a gamechanger as you said earlier.

Also UK Labour are offering DevoMax and full Federalism discussions with rUK.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/05/2017 16:19

That's a good summary from the ft, red
It's worse than getting our eggs back from an omelette

But anyone who researched before the referendum could find this out.

I did, but like many others, I assumed Brexit would be EEA / EFTA, at least for several years transition. So people may have voted Leave expecting this, rather than Brexit Ultra idiocy

LurkingHusband · 30/05/2017 16:22

Just looking at the coming-in-next-year GDPR, regarding commercial processing of personal data ...

It's an EU initiative, which the UK has been key in developing (already exploding some Leavers misconceptions that the UK was never seriously involved in Europe).

The UK (or rather UK businesses) will have to comply, regardless of how Brexit proceeds, because GPDR becomes active (it's already passed) 25/5/2018 - and the UK is in the EU until March 2019.

Even post Brexit, the EU will not allow the UK to continue without an equivalent regime - guaranteed by law and answerable to the ECJ.

Now, if that was all the UK had to work on, it might be possible to come up with a "GDPR for the UK" in time. But (see upthread) there are 759 other agreements to deal with (is that 3 a day ?).

So the upshot will be the UK will have to continue complying with the GDPR. Which will evolve. The only difference being that post 2019, the EUs answer to anything the UK will have to say about the matter will be "who gives a shit ?".

Rinse and repeat for all other EU regulations.

Even assuming the UK does manage to come up with it's own GDPR, they will have to be at least as strong as the EU version - certainly for EU citizens.

This leads to a scenario I have suggested before: that post Brexit, the UK could end up guaranteeing EU citizens rights above and beyond those of UK citizens. Obviously politically impossible, but in practice ????

taytopotato · 30/05/2017 16:29

The New York Times Why Brexit will make Britain's mediocre economy worse

UK, Singapore of Europe?
In a nutshell, Singapore was founded on Fabianism and Atlee's Labour government. 80-90% of people live in public housing which creates stability and security.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/05/2017 16:30

Howabout Didn't SNP in their smaller days include mostly "tartan Tories" ?
If so, looks like they've returned for this GE. It will be interesting to see for how long,

Also, weren't the SNP back in prehistory against joining the EU ?
... Or are my brain cells too chocolate -deprived
If so, some of those voters will have kept that opposition and they'll also likely go Tory for Brexit. Again, maybe once only.

So, it depends more on how many come back permanently to Labour

RedToothBrush · 30/05/2017 16:30

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/thersa-may-tories-losing-good-pound-labour-win-economy-markets-jp-morgan-analysis-a7763596.html
Theresa May losing the general election would be good for the pound, says JP Morgan
The Conservative's commitment to hard Brexitis bad for the UK currency,so even a hung parliament couldbe better than a Tory majority, US bank says

WOW! Just WOW.

The 'Coalition of Chaos' rated better than the 'Maynifesto of Mayhem'.

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MitzyLeFrouf · 30/05/2017 16:35

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LurkingHusband · 30/05/2017 16:44

Theresa May losing the general election would be good for the pound, says JP Morgan

The silence from big business over Brexit has been deafening, and (perhaps) slightly sinister. I wonder if they have been biding their time ?

Artisanjam · 30/05/2017 16:58

Wow! - part of that JP Morgan statement from the FT.

'An argument can be made that a hung parliament which delivered or held out the prospect of a softer-Brexit coalition of the left-of-centre parties (Labour/Lib Dems/SNP) might actually be GBP positive. FX investors might not exactly embrace various aspects of the Labour party’s domestic policy agenda (the renationalisation of certain sectors, a large fiscal expansion), but they could potentially live with these as the price of a less disruptive Brexit under a government that was more willing to preserve the status quo on free movement of labour and trade (the Lib Dems have also committed to holding a second referendum on the final terms of a Brexit deal).'

Grifone · 30/05/2017 16:59

Thanks BigChoc

whatwouldrondo · 30/05/2017 17:03

Tayto Also in that nutshell Singapore is a diasporean Confucian society, in which the Civil Service are in the tradition of the meritocratic bureaucratic elite and people conform to their expected roles and identities within the hierarchy. The Confucian responsibility of the bureaucratic elite and the Confucian rulers (and Lee conformed to that role in leading what was effectively a one Party state for over thirty years) to provide stability and prosperity for the people was probably just as much if not more to do with the way in which Singapore society and politics evolved as Fabianism. Sometimes repackaging existing currents within society in western packaging is good for international relations.....The same is true of the meritocratic education system, one of the most competitive on earth and which many educators complain stifles creativity and critical thinking in following the Confucian model.

Western politicians love to cherry pick parts of Asian society and politics to make their own political points but they rarely bother to understand the complexity or adopt an Asian perspective......

whatwouldrondo · 30/05/2017 17:24

They certainly parachuted May into Twickenham, it still isn't on the local paper's website (top story is a snake loose in Kew) and people I know whose houses back on to the school, and have children there had no clue what the fuss was about! At least when David Cameron turned up in the Garden Centre the local press were there and those that happened to be there or spotted what was going on could pitch up to the geranium display and ask question or even heckle (though the heckler did get thrown out) As I cannot post a link to anything local about May's visit I just thought I'd evoke those heady days when it seemed dodgy to just be filling a garden centre with activists amongst the ordinary shoppers.... www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11583474/General-election-2015-David-Cameron-tackles-heckler-in-Twickenham.html

taytopotato · 30/05/2017 17:29

Thanks Ron. I agree on that as well

RedToothBrush · 30/05/2017 17:29

Mikel Jollett‏ @Mikel_Jollett
Remember all that shit about the world laughing at us?

Here are leaders of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland & Iceland making fun of Trump.

Westministenders – 10 days to go
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whatwouldrondo · 30/05/2017 17:30

Is the Morgan Stanley analysis such a shock. It is their responsibility to give investors sound advice irrespective of politics or their own economic interest (though being human subjectivity will creep in). To do so they employ experts. They understand the likely impacts of Brexit, indeed in some respects their own strategic plans are one of the impacts. They have been trying to communicate that to deaf ears in Westminster.... This is their analysis based on their existing knowledge.

Artisanjam · 30/05/2017 17:33

I agree Ron, but to go so publicly against TM on the economy just before an election - I hadn't noticed that sort of behaviour before from a business.

BluePeppers · 30/05/2017 17:38

On the other side, I had never seen such an apathy from all side, incl businesses, when TM settled down as a PM and was going on about Brexit means Brexit.

At least we finally have some sort of opposition and some voices showing a different pov. It is so needed for this election!

Figmentofmyimagination · 30/05/2017 18:03

Who were all those people clapping so enthusiastically when TM intoned 'no deal is better than a good deal', 'we're going to make a success of it' etc?

I know the audience was weighted out of fairness, and not 'self selecting' like an AQ audience - , but even so, I was taken aback by their enthusiasm for this kind of vacuous soundbite, this far down the track.

Charmageddon · 30/05/2017 18:11

Who were all those people clapping so enthusiastically when TM intoned 'no deal is better than a good deal',

Better than a bad deal, obvs! Grin