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Brexit

Westministenders – 10 days to go

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/05/2017 11:48

The Maynifesto is out (lets be honest here; other Manifestos are just exercises in dreaming). The rumours of what will happen post Election are in full swing.

The Conservatives are ‘relaunching’ their campaign after Theresa May’s single handed attempt at throwing the election, has needed an intervention.

Yet the reality is that May will win. And win comfortably, increasing her majority. Talk of a Corbyn surge is just that. Talk. He still is more than 5% behind and the excitement about how the gap has closed is getting carried away. Indeed it only helps the Conservatives to get their vote out. Corbyn also started from such a dreadful position, it just makes the effect look more dramatic than it really is and May was always going to struggle to get much more support after the local election peak.

The thing is none of the political parties are covering themselves in glory. No one is offering what people want. In terms of voters not being impressed by their leadership, I don’t think many are really happy and are just going for the best available option out of a particular bad crop. It does not bode well for the future regardless of who wins. We should be worried about the quality of debate and our representatives regardless of who we end up voting for.

Come election night there are going to be some particularly shocking results. The idea that there is a national trend is not right. This election is highly localised in nature. Which will result in these surprises to outsiders but perhaps not locals.

June 9th will make for a lot of soul searching I suspect. For all three parties. There will be leadership questions that remain unanswered and need to be resolved. There are still massive political divides in parties. Heads will roll and need to be replaced. Expectations and the reality have been out of line for all three in one way or another.

Yet all of this is a side show to an extent. Whilst we all scrabble around trying to work it out amongst ourselves, the rest of the world moves forward without us. And the clock ticks.

Merkel has set the tone for the next round of Brexit. It is regarded by the German political elite as ‘Trumpandbrexit’. We are part of the same phenomenon even though many see it through different eyes in this country. This lack of awareness of how we are perceived outside our own walls is something we will face head on at some point and it won’t be good.

Trump himself is up to his neck in scandal. And has risked our safety as a direct result. May might have held her hand but that relationship does not seem to be going well for us. We are between a rock and a hard place and are drifting out to see.

Global Britain has never seemed so lonely and isolated. The rosy future we were promised, becomes ever more a distant dream rather than a dawn of a new age.

Reality will get us in the end.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 30/05/2017 11:16

I emigrated to Germany in July. So I watch with interest and sympathy what is happening to the UK.
Many other UK scientists have moved in the meantime - Germany has put out the welcome mat for us Smile

Will the last scientist to leave the Uk please turn off the Maybot

LurkingHusband · 30/05/2017 11:19

the Conservatives have still not lost their “nasty party” reputation."

I love there's a Wiki entry for the original ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasty_Party

BluePeppers · 30/05/2017 11:19

Can someone explained to me something.
I have been here for nearly 20 years so after all the IRA stuff calmed down. That also means i have missed some stuff on politics.
Some my question is about JC.
Lots of attacks saying that he is an IRA sympathiser, that he sported them etc...
JC is a pacifist. Always has been. Still is.
How coud he ever have been supporting bombing from the IRA? Confused
And why are people believing people stating that he is an IRA supporter?

missmoon · 30/05/2017 11:20

"Is that from canvassing 18-24 year olds, or actual analysis of real votes cast ?"

Lurking on the turnout figures , you can get pretty accurate estimates form the British Election Study.

pearlydewdropsdrop · 30/05/2017 11:23

Just for fun:

corbynrun.com/

BluePeppers · 30/05/2017 11:24

BigChoc stats are showing that the immigration has come down.
BECAUSE brits are leaving the UK....

Youre not the only one, nor the last one.
But this will hit the UK HARD.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-net-migration-unemployment-drop-the-target-a7761751.html
So it seems that we are taking the risk of increasing unemployment rather than improving working conditions etc...

(Interestingly, i put the title of the article on Google and it came out with an ad of the Tories on immigration. Seems they've been very busy with Google Ads....)

BluePeppers · 30/05/2017 11:27

For fun, the song that is hitting the top 10
m.youtube.com/watch?v=HxN1STgQXW8 (thats about TM)

Charmageddon · 30/05/2017 11:27

Lots of attacks saying that he is an IRA sympathiser, that he sported them etc...
JC is a pacifist. Always has been. Still is.
How coud he ever have been supporting bombing from the IRA?
*
And why are people believing people stating that he is an IRA supporter?*

Because he was.
And Hamas
And Hezbollah

It's all out there if you google it, people aren't just blindly believing smears.

BluePeppers · 30/05/2017 11:34

So he is a pacifist that is supporting terrorism and violence?
Isnt there some incompatibility there?

LurkingHusband · 30/05/2017 11:46

The problem with discussing the 70s and 80s, is that what people think they "know" is actually merely what the UK government (of both parties) wanted them to know.

So people think it's "the truth" that the UK government never contemplated negotiating with the IRA - although we now know, they not only contemplated it, but did it.

So people think it's "the truth" that the UK government never acknowledged the UK could not win an armed conflict with the IRA - although it was the military advice from the earliest stages.

As a teenage Londoner, in the 80s, I can well remember Ken Livingstone being vilified for supporting the IRA. Unfortunately for the Daily Mail, I had a chance to meet him in 1983, when he accepted an invitation to talk at our sixth form (as did Tony Benn a bit later. We never got a Tory in). He was hit with this question early on, and his response was much more nuanced and sensible than the Daily Mail hysterics. It essentially boiled down to : "at some point in time, we will end up negotiating and end to this conflict, so we could start by talking to the other side, as every day spent posturing over not talking is costing innocent lives."

I would say, history is on Kens side, not Thatchers.

LurkingHusband · 30/05/2017 11:51

Some light relief

Peregrina · 30/05/2017 11:58

What a shame that Liar Liar wasn't our Eurovision Song Entry. It might have won.

Motheroffourdragons · 30/05/2017 12:02

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Mistigri · 30/05/2017 12:03

BluePeppers Lord knows I am no Corbyn fan but these are definitely politically-motivated smears.

Corbyn's position - which appears to have been consistent for decades - is that political problems need political solutions (ie negotiation) and that violence and repression do not solve anything.

He was on the right side of history re Ireland - the GFA was achieved only once the UK committed to negotiations with Sinn Fein (and btw I'm 52, and a Londoner, so I do remember the days of IRA terror).

There is a very telling photo doing the rounds on Twitter of Corbyn with either Gerry Adams or Martin McGuinness (sorry can't remember which) and Nelson Mandela. It is captioned with a reminder that in the 1980s the Tories described Mandela as a terrorist and called for him to be hanged.

Basically, the Tories are flat out wrong on this.

officerhinrika · 30/05/2017 12:07

I've been lurking for ages but still appreciating this thread. I listened to Woman's Hour today, like every day and I've actually been moved to tweet and email to complain. Appalling interviewing by Emma Barnett, rude, overly aggressive and ultimately all about her. Had hoped WH would do it better, I didn't need a rerun of last night. Even allowing for my own political bias I do feel the BBC coverage is increasingly right wing. JC did slip up on childcare figures at the beginning but remained commendably calm and polite to the end.

Regarding the u24s voting intentions, DS2 has changed his vote from green to Labour and DS1 is flying home for the weekend from Germany where's he's working for a term to sign his postal vote. He had trouble getting the address changed until the last minute but of course he gets to see us too! I'm encouraged by the reaction of their friends to this election, many see it as a reply to the Brexit vote and the effect on jobs.

Charmageddon · 30/05/2017 12:18

Wrt the GFA - it was nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn.

He has appropriated Mo Mowlem et al's work - they worked with both sides to achieve a peace process.

JC is not 'on the right side' of anything - he picked a side - this is his consistency throughout all of his past encounters with armed conflict.

LurkingHusband · 30/05/2017 12:31

Wrt the GFA - it was nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn.

True.

It was due to the IRA waking up and realising that while the UK government was able to accept a lot of violence to people, it couldn't take any risk with the City - one bomb; Canary Wharf, and we're at the negotiating table.

BluePeppers · 30/05/2017 12:41

I was reading the webcast with JC on MN.
So apparently, we need to stop the FoM and control our immigration to have the rights skills coming in.
And at the same time, we would aim to ave access to the free market.

Has some one told any of these politicians that THIS NOT POSSIBLE and that for the EU free trade and FoM go hand in hand?

Despair....
Maybe one isn't better than the other....

BluePeppers · 30/05/2017 12:42

Re JC and the IRA.
In some ways im happy to see that there is no wonder why i am confused seeing all your answers!

Motheroffourdragons · 30/05/2017 12:43

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Charmageddon · 30/05/2017 12:48

Webchat was shit.

Fucking biscuits & jam.

Mistigri · 30/05/2017 12:50

Wrt the GFA - it was nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn

Who suggested it was? Point is that he was on the right side of history, on

  • the ANC
  • the Iraq war
  • Ireland

Which kind of suggests that while he may not be a very good leader (but none of the four main parties has a good leader right now) he does have good judgement on these issues.

He's crap on brexit, but no worse than the Tories, and at least he won't sell his soul and trade away workers' rights for a non-exec position on a hedge fund board.

prettybird · 30/05/2017 12:59

Trying to catch up on a day's worth of Westministenders but just had to say I've just shouted "Oh Fuck Off Angry" at the Maybot on TV as she said "Strong and Stable" again Hmm Dh and I are both commenting how sterile her delivery is.

HashiAsLarry · 30/05/2017 13:05

The massive problem with the line 'we do not negotiate with terrorists' is that negotiation is not the same as conversing with them in order to either understand their motives or get them to realise it doesn't work. Failure to converse means failure to get to a place of peace.

ElenaGreco123 · 30/05/2017 13:20

The Tories were not exactly innocent bystanders in the Troubles if I understand it correctly. They supported the loyalist paramilitaries, no?

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