Westministenders: Theresa's Common People

[RedToothBrush]

She came from Oxfordshire she had a thirst for knowledge
She studied geography at Saint Hugh's College
That's where politics
Caught her eye

She told them that her husband was loaded
The press barons said "In that case have a rum and coca-cola"
She said "Fine"
And in thirty seconds time she said

I want to look like common people
I want to do whatever common people do
I want to eat like common people
I want to sleep like common people
Like you

Well what else could Fiona and Nick do
They said "We'll see what we can do"

They took her to a supermarket
I don't know why
But they had to start it somewhere
So it started there
They said pretend you've got no money
She just laughed and said
"Oh you're so funny"
They smiled "Yeah”
Well we can't see anyone else smiling in here

Are you sure you want to live like common people
You want to see whatever common people see
You want to eat like common people
You want to sleep like common people
Like me

But she didn't understand
She just smiled and held Trump’s hand

Order that benefits get the chop
Tell them all to get a job
Promise to bring back the grammar school
Pretend you don’t think them a fool
But still you'll never get it right
'Cause when you're laid in bed at night
Watching the news talking about building the wall
All have to do is call your mates to fake it all

You'll never live like common people
You'll never do whatever common people do
You'll never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
Whilst you blame it all on the EU
Because that’s all you can do

Sing along with the common people
Sing along and it might just get Brexit through
Laugh along with the common people
Laugh about leaving the EU

It’s the most stupid thing that you will do
Because you think that it is cool
You’ll call them a ‘lying foreigner’
But don’t say we didn’t warn you
You’ll regret saying we are better off out
'Cause everybody hates a benefits tourist

It doesn’t matter if you can’t do the math
With all those pockets that you grease
You’ll win the vote in Bath

You will never understand
How it feels to live your life
With no meaning or control
And with nowhere left to go
You are amazed that they exist
And wish they were all white
So you tell ‘The Big Lie’

Get THE flat above THE shop
Cut your hair and get THE job
Trick some mugs and hire some fool
Pretend you are not really cruel
But still you'll never get it right
Instead you're plotting late at night
About which ‘cockroach’ will take the fall
All have to do is call your mates to fake it all
Yeah

You'll never live like common people
You'll never do what common people do
You'll never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
As we plan to leave the EU
Because there's nothing else left to do

But ‘moan’ about how we don’t want to leave the EU.

imo, we should stop interfering in countries which, however vile their domestic regime, don't pose a direct threat to the West.

It is entirely foreseeable that removing or weakening governments of Muslim countries that are not directly dangerous to us would lead to anarchy and an explosion in the Islamic extremism which those dictators kept under control

Overall I think we have become very reactionary in our thinking and very backward looking in a way that doesn't involve considering the implications for the future well. Yes learn from the past but have ideas for the future. Others are forming the future out of our own lack of vision. That's not good.

Yes, yes, yes.

Misti a hung parliament dream cabinet? Yes to Starmer and Grieve on the Brexit Committee. Also why not Anna Soubry and good old Ken? I quite like Clegg too. Which senior Labour politicians? Benn? That sounds like a very pro-Europe committee!

May crushes any opportunity of vision. She only likes voices that she agrees with. In order to have change and to encourage vision we need debate. Debate May is doing her up most to kill off.

As it happens I think there is a certain lack of vision from the EU itself. Which I do think has fed Brexiteer thinking. But they simply are critical and don't properly understand the complexities.

I particularly think shutting out young people from this discussion is bad though. They have better understanding of the here and now and the possibility for the future as a result.

I think there have been instances where unilateral humanitarian intervention has bought about lasting good for the people. I know people from Sierra Leone for instance who feel it was a force for good in ending the Civil War. Whilst ethnic tensions in the Balkans may be just held under a lid at least there is now the stability although the cleansing and depopulation are also factors. Tito also achieved that of course through good government, I don't think Communism and good government are mutually exclusive. However it has to be done with a plan that respects and works with local culture and politics, not imposing an ideology. America is particularly bad at that, basically because its aims are largely imperialistic not humanitarian. The UK of course came to Sierra Leone's Aid during the Ebola crisis as well as the Civil War and I am not sure people fully appreciate what the military and our health workers and other managers risked and achieved there.

The Middle East is an example though of how not to do it and I cannot believe that anyone claiming that the military interventions are not a factor in the rise of terrorism actually mix with the wider Muslim community and has discussed the issues with them in any depth. Of course ISIS are despicable, and regarded as such by the majority of Muslims, not least because they are not Islamic. However the fact that the Muslim community feel othered by what is happening overseas and at home and are upset by the suffering (over a million was raised in aid to Syria during the last Ramadan fundraising initiative) does foster alienation and is a start to a process that can end with naively being inspired by the vision of a caliphate and doing damage to the west, either naively or rendered vulnerable by mental illness, frustration, or just being an aggressive murderous arsehole. For every British person that has gone to Libya and Syria to fight and returned a hardened terrorist there is probably another who has returned realising the reality was evil.

Yes to a hung parliament and a cross party cabinet, is there room for Vince there? Doing my best to make that reality.......

And of course there will always be space for Chukka in my Cabinet.....

Yes to Chuka and Vince!

And Yvette.

It's just that you don't know if no intervening at that point would have set a chain of events even worse.

It is not just a simple matter of intervening or not intervening. There are levels of intervention to be considered as well as how we go about armed intervention should we do it. I don't necessarily think that leaving the middle East to its own devices would have been a great idea, but I do think going in without a proper understanding of the situation and how we would deal with the fall out was a bloody disaster.

We do need to learn from these experiences and stop the reactionary bomb dropping. Corbyn's statements that armed intervention should be a last resort and not entered into without proper planing and consideration of the implications may not make great soundbites or sound as big and arse kicking as obliterating all enemies, but they are a considered and forward thinking response to the events in the middle East and how our actions have played a part in creating the current chaos.

YY to the dream cabinet, but there must be some sane moderate leavers we can recruit. Any thoughts?

Given the exceptional circumstances, I think we should also be allowed to include experts (I know, I know...) from outside Parliament.

I would have David Allen Green and Sadiq Khan...maybe also the Norths who seem to be quite popular on these threads?

Yes Glass good idea: experts from outside the hallowed walls.

Maybe Ian Dunt.
And yes to moderate Leavers. Who?

I lurk on here , but has anyone been listening to Jeremy Bowen on Radio 4 - 'Our Man in the Middle East'- all has been good , but yesterdays episode is well worth a listen www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08r2xcr

Valentine re your comment on alternative energy sources, it depends if they rely on scare resources produced in potentially unstable countries.

I am not talking about just wind and turbine. I am talking solar mainly. And other options. We have some of the best R&D infrastructures in the world. So far. When Bill Gates says that energy is one of the three major sectors where new graduates won't be at a loss for work opportunities, he is absolutely right.
Which brings me to what Red said about my post (I can't copy your comments for some reason). I am not really dwelling on past. But I think it is quite obvious where a no-intervention at the time would have led us. People generally want prosperity and peace for their families. Democracy brings that about by slowly cleansing away developing societies of the corrupt elements and politicians. That is not a hard and fast rule but is generally true and works Though it looks like it is not working because the effects become obvious after at least one or two generations. Again, India is a big example. They are nowhere near perfect but at least they are not exporting terrorism and their citizens are not dying in their thousands due to some rogue dictator who thought it was ok to silence every voice of reason. They have a slowly but surely prospering economy, an energised youth and postitive image in the world already.
From bribes to blackmails, it is not hard to imagine how easy it is to manipulate a people who are dirt poor and largely uneducated, hungry (so brain is focused on keeping food on table only) and used to being oppressed (Zulfiqar Bhutto in Pakistan belonged to a very large family of landowners who were handed those large swathes of lands in return for loyal services in the early part of 1900s by guess who? Yes, British colonists). These dirt poor people just meh the dictators that turn over a democratic government, no matter how corrupt it is, and go with the flow so long as it suits their needs (needs being having some clothes and a roof and some bread). I think at the time that we attacked Iraq, Saddam was hardly looking like losing power but he was not going to be there forever. And if you look closely, strategically well placed dictators don't have the tendency to fall dead suddenly. They have the tendency to get hanged (Iraq), shot (Lybia) or blown (Pakistan). I know the more recent history shows some of them do survive (Erdogan and Musharraf (another one we had the "sheer luck" of being in the right place at the right time when we wanted to bomb Afghanistan after 9/11 while staying chummy with Saudis where the bombers actually belonged to) : Turkey has started to see effects of using terrorism as trade and Pakistan has paid the price of tens of thousands of civilian and forces' casualties and permanent change of parts of country due to immense refugee crisis) but then these recent dictators have used full blown proxy wars to their advantage like none of the older lot did, haven't they? (How come every little rebellion born in UK so easily gets to slip in and out of Turkey for example?) I think that is one lesson their lot probably learnt faster than us. I don't think it is a coincidence that Bin Laden lived miles from the capital city of Pakistan and no one knew.
So again, that goes against the argument of what would have happened if we hadn't intervened. THIS wouldn't not have happened most likely and that would have been a big plus!
I don't think it is ambiguous to the point of not knowing what would have happened had we not gone in there and to act on what needs to be done now. I think it's time we seriously rethink the energy dilemma of West and absolutely invest in there on war basis. I think that there is enough left in this world for all of us yet. Again, like Bill Gates said (I am not an absolute fan but I think he talked sense when he said energy, artificial intelligence and biosciences are the future), we have immense potential only if we focus.
I think it will be the greatest challenge of them all to refocus our economy, challenge the weapons trade industry, oil economy.
We need to invest in education and infrastructure on emergency basis now. So much of the world's resources in biosciences and AI are untapped that we are sure to "stumble" upon numerous "eureka" things that will inevitably generate jobs, boost economy and bring back return on the investment. We have the great advantage of having some of the world's best R&D infrastructure and academic institutions in our country (we essentially need to stay in Europe if we have to keep it that way though). But we probably have a couple or so decades left hardly. Before we are taken over by the sheer man power of China and India etc. That will come with a new set of problems. So the time to act is NOW. No one can tell what will happen if we stop being nasty. But good things WILL happen if we refocus our energies and national targets now. If we focus them on our youth and develop their potential. Right now the iron is hot as the youth has sat up and taking notice.

I'm pleased to see that May has listened to some experts and that the terror threat is being reduced from 'critical' to 'severe' with the military being stood down after the Bank Holiday.

But let's give another round of applause to the people of Manchester, who showed that there are still many, many decent people in this country.

I'm pleased to see that May has listened to some experts and that the <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40069959" target="_blank">terror threatt* is being reduced from 'critical' to 'severe'

It's exactly what she's done all week re the threat level - followed the independent recommendations of JTAC.

www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/809745/jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-election-eharmony
This article from the express is special. it takes journalism to new levels.

Ian Dunt@IanDunt

Enjoying the dawning realisation among commentators that May might possibly be catastrophically inept at Brexit negotiations.
What was the clue that have it away? The complete absence of achievements over her career?
Her failure to nuetralise her disadvantages or build on her leverage? The fact she looks permanently terrified?

Re the threat level, that's not TM's call, nor has it ever been. That's MI5 et all (there's a proper name for the actual team that work together). It's experts though so maybe it's only taken seriously when the pm announces it.

Been out leafleting today in enemy territory no less 😂. Expectation re turnout isn't great here. They're expecting it to be low.

Defense Sec Fallon mistakes a Bojo comment for Corbyn - and condemns it

Either the cabinet has seriously differing views about the causes of terrorism
OR some ministers are making knee-jerk party political comments about terror

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/27/fallon-left-red-faced-after-condemning-boris-johnson-extremism-comments

Fallon was asked on C4 News to comment on this statement:
“Isn’t it possible that things like the Iraq war did not create the problem of murderous Islamic fundamentalists, though the war has unquestionably sharpened the resentments felt by such people in this country and given them a new pretext?”

Fallon condemned the comment, thinking it had been made by Corbyn.

However, Guru-Murthy then revealed that Johnson had said the words in response to the 7/7 London bombings in 2005 that killed 52 people.

I agree if May - or any other PM - were to set the threat level either higher or lower than the experts recommended, it would be leaked and would seriously damage her.

So, even if one considers May and / or Corbyn irresponsible, I would believe the official threat level and follow the advice given.

If that is to keep calm and continue as normal, then we should do so
If it is to stay home or avoid certain cities, then of course we should obey that instruction, unless the trustworthiness of that govt seriously deteriorates from what it has ever been.

Either the cabinet has seriously differing views about the causes of terrorism
OR some ministers are making knee-jerk party political comments about terror

This has really pissed me off beyond belief, BigChoc (not your post!).

Instead of knee jerk party political bollocks (which it was), they should be taking a long hard look at what's gone wrong & how to move forward.

Own the mistakes that they have so obviously made and making grown up analyses of future direction & strategy.

But no.
They just squabble like kids.

White supremacist violent reaction against Muslims (US)

< Posters often recommend verbally supporting victims of racial harassment, but that can be very dangerous. These 2 men died for being good Samaritans, defending women. Another man was injured >

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/27/man-shouting-anti-muslim-slurs-fatally-stabs-two-men-in-us

"Two men were fatally stabbed in Portland, Oregon on Friday after they came to the aid of two women who were being harassed because they appeared to be Muslim, police said.
Portland police named the suspect as Jeremy Joseph Christian and said he was being held without bail at the Multnomah County jail.
The 35-year-old, a known white supremacist .... was booked on two counts of aggravated murder, one count of attempted murder, two counts of intimidation in the second degree, and one count of felon in possession of a restricted weapon.
He could face additional charges after the case is presented to a grand jury.
He is due to be arraigned on Monday."
"...Christian yelled racial slurs and repeatedly gave a Nazi salute at a rightwing march in April. Police confiscated a baseball bat he carried to the event"

"the Council on American-Islamic Relations (Cair) said anti-Muslim incidents in the US had increased by more than 50% from 2015 to 2016, which it blamed in part on Donald Trump’s focus on militant Islamist groups and anti-immigrant rhetoric."

I thought Bojo's original comment was very sensible and that his reaction after 7/7 was very professional as mayor.

I meant the Fallon's reaction to the comment, believing it to be from Corbyn, not the comment itself.

How HaveThe Polls Changed Their Methodology Since 2015?

The polling orgs investigated the under-prediction of the Conservatives in previous GEs and found it was mostly down to incorrect sampling (NOT shy Tories !):
young people - who are much more inclined to vote left - in samples were too politically active and hence had an untypically high VI

All the polling organizations have changed their methodology in various ways since then:

www.britishpollingcouncil.org/how-have-the-polls-changed-since-2015/

What these changes mean though, is that comparisons to 2015 polls are not comparing like with like.

The key question is whether they have done enough / too much / about right to capture all the Tory vote

So, we don't know whether to expect a Tory landslide, or a comfortably increased majority, or even staying about the same - the latter would be a very embarrassing lack of the clear mandate that May wanted and a waste of time during the tight A50 countdown.