Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Theresa's Common People

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 18/05/2017 13:50

She came from Oxfordshire she had a thirst for knowledge
She studied geography at Saint Hugh's College
That's where politics
Caught her eye

She told them that her husband was loaded
The press barons said "In that case have a rum and coca-cola"
She said "Fine"
And in thirty seconds time she said

I want to look like common people
I want to do whatever common people do
I want to eat like common people
I want to sleep like common people
Like you

Well what else could Fiona and Nick do
They said "We'll see what we can do"

They took her to a supermarket
I don't know why
But they had to start it somewhere
So it started there
They said pretend you've got no money
She just laughed and said
"Oh you're so funny"
They smiled "Yeah”
Well we can't see anyone else smiling in here

Are you sure you want to live like common people
You want to see whatever common people see
You want to eat like common people
You want to sleep like common people
Like me

But she didn't understand
She just smiled and held Trump’s hand

Order that benefits get the chop
Tell them all to get a job
Promise to bring back the grammar school
Pretend you don’t think them a fool
But still you'll never get it right
'Cause when you're laid in bed at night
Watching the news talking about building the wall
All have to do is call your mates to fake it all

You'll never live like common people
You'll never do whatever common people do
You'll never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
Whilst you blame it all on the EU
Because that’s all you can do

Sing along with the common people
Sing along and it might just get Brexit through
Laugh along with the common people
Laugh about leaving the EU

It’s the most stupid thing that you will do
Because you think that it is cool
You’ll call them a ‘lying foreigner’
But don’t say we didn’t warn you
You’ll regret saying we are better off out
'Cause everybody hates a benefits tourist

It doesn’t matter if you can’t do the math
With all those pockets that you grease
You’ll win the vote in Bath

You will never understand
How it feels to live your life
With no meaning or control
And with nowhere left to go
You are amazed that they exist
And wish they were all white
So you tell ‘The Big Lie’

Get THE flat above THE shop
Cut your hair and get THE job
Trick some mugs and hire some fool
Pretend you are not really cruel
But still you'll never get it right
Instead you're plotting late at night
About which ‘cockroach’ will take the fall
All have to do is call your mates to fake it all
Yeah

You'll never live like common people
You'll never do what common people do
You'll never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
As we plan to leave the EU
Because there's nothing else left to do

But ‘moan’ about how we don’t want to leave the EU.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
LurkingHusband · 26/05/2017 11:29

How many people remember CND from the 80s (I know they started well before but my memories are from then) ?

Is bit possible to be anti-trident (as I am) but not necessarily go the whole CND hog ?

I never really understood why we had to upgrade Polaris ?

Charmageddon · 26/05/2017 11:55

Is bit possible to be anti-trident (as I am) but not necessarily go the whole CND hog ?

Yes, definitely.

In an ideal world I'd like complete disarmament of all nuclear & chemical weapons (any weapons to be fair, in an ideal world).

Unfortunately, the world isn't ideal so I can see the folly in 'our' side disarming, whilst the 'other' side continues unabated.

However, for as long as we're linked via NATO etc then there is no actual need for any more than one country 'having it', but it being a joint effort wrt financing & controlling it iyswim.

The world has changed & moved on, and so, ultimately has 'war' & how it's done (just like the switch from swords to guns, then guns to tanks etc etc).

The way to 'fight' the war on terror is by strengthening our defence & security in the macro, whilst at the same time working tirelessly on the micro.
Just as vulnerable girls are easy pickings for grooming in a sexual way, angry young disenfranchised boys are ripe for grooming in a terror way - this is where the real work lies I think.

Trident isn't worth a wank when the people who wish us harm are living, working and plotting amongst us.
When they're our own people.

lalalonglegs · 26/05/2017 13:10

Alternatively, would it be possible to do some sort of weapons-sharing with other countries so that more than one government agrees to fund Trident and the y are deployed at various locations among friendly countries, each paying for maintenance etc?

LurkingHusband · 26/05/2017 13:22

they are deployed at various locations among friendly countries, each paying for maintenance etc?

the whole point about post 1950s nuclear strategy is that no-one - not even Theresa May or President Trump - has any idea where their countries nuclear weapons are. It's the reason they are secreted in submarines that have no set itinerary.

The UK has 4 Trident subs, of which 3 (I think) are always on deployment.

squishysquirmy · 26/05/2017 13:38

I can see both sides of the nuclear deterrent issue, and thought that Corbyn's compromise on trident, (which he was lambasted for) wasn't a bad one: Despite being it against it personally, he said it would be renewed (so there to use in the future if necessary), but that he would be very reluctant to ever use it. Many people said that it would be pointless to renew it if the PM had expressed reluctance to use it, but I disagree - PMs change regularly, nuclear deterrents are a long term commitment.

Charmageddon · 26/05/2017 13:53

I'm afraid I disagree with Corbyn's half-assed idea tbh, sorry Squishy Smile

It's a binary choice - renew or don't renew; the cost of it is far too great to be a 'maybe nice to have at some point' thing.

RedToothBrush · 26/05/2017 13:57

www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-general-election-no-deal-remainers-lib-dems-wont-accept-a7757091.html
Re-leavers won’t accept a ‘no deal’ Brexit as willingly as Theresa May thinks

Vince Cable - He has a point.

Here is a paragraph from a column in the Times's today:

Westministenders: Theresa's Common People
Westministenders: Theresa's Common People
OP posts:
Charmageddon · 26/05/2017 14:07

Corbyn's claim that the war on terror isn't working really does resonant - because its right - however you cut it. In this, he has the advantage. The details of what he intends to do about it won't be liked by all though. I can't see Kippers agreeing easily.

I think his speech today outlined precisely why he is a terrible person to be PM.

His student-level understanding & rhetoric surrounding Islamic fundamentalism is narrow & un-nuanced; he has no actual tangible, realistic plan for the way ahead - just a history analysis.

He had the opportunity to spout his views on what the effect of our meddling in foreign lands has done, and grasped that with both hands - maybe he's right about that - but what now? What for the future? What would you do Jeremy?

I said it before on these threads, I am genuinely fearful that he will get elected.

RedToothBrush · 26/05/2017 14:57

Robert Peston‏*@Peston*
This by @TheIFS on deficits under Tory and Labour bit of a disaster for Tory plans to warn Labour would mean fiscal catastrophe

Westministenders: Theresa's Common People
OP posts:
twofingerstoEverything · 26/05/2017 15:03

Alternatively, would it be possible to do some sort of weapons-sharing with other countries so that more than one government agrees to fund Trident and the y are deployed at various locations among friendly countries, each paying for maintenance etc?

I don't think the UK is very good at 'sharing', lala. Particularly England.

howabout · 26/05/2017 15:23

Red the 2015 Tory Manifesto was no less credible and had 5 years of GO over promising and under delivering behind it. Made no difference. JC is proving what my thought at the time that EM was far far too timid.

I agree with JC on defence policy and ill advised interventions and interestingly MP and AJ seemed to on This Week last night as well. Charles Clarke just reminded me of everything wrong with TB and like him there was no acknowledgement or insight gained from past misadventures.

Just looking at the NewStatesman seat predictor. I think the basic premise is wrong. It is ascribing stronger swing to Tories in the South than North. I think the Brexit effect is likely to be the exact opposite. Conclusion is probably more Con seats than prediction - I think it is pre the latest YouGov though? Also looks weird in Scotland where it is not adjusting for geographical difference at all.

Interesting to see where the TM opposition within the Conservative Party is and whether it is driven by conviction or marginalitis - difficult to see where it would defect to in vote terms but could depress turnout?

RedToothBrush · 26/05/2017 15:33

Its all about turnout in my opinion:

Will 2015 UKIP turn out for May?
Will it turn out at all?

Will Labour voters who don't like Corbyn turnout out for Labour?
Will Remain Labour voters turn out for Labour?
Will young voters turn out for Corbyn?

Will liberal Conservative voters turn out for May?
Will remain Conservative voters turn out for May?

Will Liberal Democrat leavers who like the localism message turnout for the LDs?

We KNOW the Conservative pensioners will generally turnout for May. That doesn't seem to have changed at all and seems to be consistent in polling. But I think this is just about the only 'known' I've seen.

There has been such a focus on switchers but I'm not convinced the real story is about the switchers ultimately after all.

There seems to be a lot of people who aren't going to shift their beliefs but don't like the offering from their tribal leader this time round.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 26/05/2017 15:37

BTW I actually think turnout won't be depressed over all. I think how close it is, will drive people out to vote. It just might not be 'traditional' voters in the same way as in the past.

I think if that's true then that could lead to some errors in polling as people are not behaving as predictably as forecasters think. I don't think it will overall affect things but the potential for some real shockers on election night is there.

I'm also now wondering to whose favour that might go. I don't think its obviously to anyone's advantage.

OP posts:
Charmageddon · 26/05/2017 15:46

Whatever the outcome, I think it's going to be another nail-biter of a night!!

RedToothBrush · 26/05/2017 16:48

C4 News FactCheck‏*@FactCheck*

Home Sec Amber Rudd says connecting UK foreign policy + terrorism is "outrageous". But 66% of voters disagree with her + back Corbyn's view.

Westministenders: Theresa's Common People
OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 26/05/2017 16:54

More from the Institute for Fiscal Studies stuff earlier:

Fascinating graph. LDs best for the poor. Cons best for the rich. Labour worst for the rich.

The IFS overall conclusions out of comparing the manifestos:

Conservatives largely sticking with plans already laid down.

  • But these are themselves substantial: big benefit cuts in the pipeline, hitting low-income working-age households

Labour propose bug changes, which are likely to reduce inequality

  • But the tax rises would not merely hit the top 5%: would also affect more "ordinary households".
  • All taxes - not just personal taxes ' - affect people

Only small % of Labour's extra revenue is earmarked for benefits

  • Lib Dems would go further in cancelling planned benefit cuts
  • Labour focusing more on increases in other public spending
Westministenders: Theresa's Common People
OP posts:
Eeeeeowwwfftz · 26/05/2017 16:59

Has the most boring election ever suddenly become interesting?

It'll still be a Tory victory, of course, but the size of the majority is now up for grabs I think, and if it ends up as small as now (or smaller) I wonder how long May will be able to hang on. Bookies odds for a Lab win have shortened to around 6/1.

RedToothBrush · 26/05/2017 17:12

What's the saying?

'May you live in interesting times.'

Agree I still think that the Tories will win. But the size of that majority matters. May called the election because she didn't have the full support of people (because she's been coming up with a load of undemocratic bullshit and ideological nonsense which has no economic logical whatsoever).

It's starting to look like her honeymoon bubble has burst in spectacular fashion right in the middle of an election campaign as people naturally ask questions due to the election. Perhaps this shouldn't be a surprise since elections are supposed to engage people politically. People who the rest of the time are totally indifferent and uninterested in politics which has allowed May to get away with being not held to account.

May also thought it was just all about Brexit. (As did the LDs) Its proving not to be. Bit lessons to be had here.

OP posts:
howabout · 26/05/2017 17:21

I think YouGov have asked the wrong question.

Even if you agree with JC that UK foreign policy has provoked a terrorist reaction it is a different question whether you think the intervention was the wrong course of action.

Charmageddon · 26/05/2017 17:25

I agree howabout.

I don't think our actions in the ME have been the cause or reason for terrorism in this country - but I do think that they have provided a convenient hook for the Islamist recruiters to hang their rhetoric on when grooming their prey.

Charmageddon · 26/05/2017 17:26

Sorry, I meant I agree with what you said and I also think that blah blah...

Artisanjam · 26/05/2017 17:44

Interesting Peston post from Facebook:

"On Monday, before the appalling events in Manchester, I made the bloomin' obvious point on News at Ten that momentum was with Labour and against Theresa May and the Tories.

My explanation was that she had misread the mood of the country, with her stress on all the challenges we face and how she is the solid choice to lead us through hard times. People seem to want more of a positive vision of how their lives will improve than she has provided.

If a poll in the Times newspaper is accurate, that remains the case - with Labour's poll deficit cut to 5 percentage points, down from 10 a few days ago in most polls and around 20 at the start of the campaign.

To state the obvious, she remains in the lead, but the trend is seriously going against her.

What is it all about?

Well obviously May caused considerable anxiety among older voters with her plan to force all to pay for their social care. And her hasty u-turn on Monday, when she announced there would be a cap on costs after all, did not smack of competence - which was supposed to her almost-unique selling point.

But the incident spoke to me of a bigger problem for her and the Tories - which is that her manifesto is a bit dour and uninspiring.

It is a coherent analysis of big challenges the country faces. It is supposed to play to her strengths of resolve and tenacity to meet these challenges.

But, as the social-care debacle epitomized, it is long on collective effort and short on rewards. It majors on fear of everything going wrong, especially over the nature of Brexit, rather than hope that - to coin a phrase - things can only get better.

And if the EU referendum of last year taught us anything, it is that voters prefer hope over fear: they chose the hope of a more prosperous self-determining UK, promised (perhaps spuriously) by Johnson and Gove, over fears of economic catastrophe, whipped up by Osborne and Cameron.

Given that May defined her early months in office and herself by distancing herself from DC and Osbo, it is odd perhaps that she seems to be repeating their mistake.

Because the whole thrust of Labour's campaign is to promise immediate goodies to everyone, all paid for by higher taxes on the richest 5%.

Now there is a credible argument that in practice Labour's policies would end up making the country and most people poorer - because if the public-sector deficit and national debt rises as fast as it may under Labour, ultimately interest rates and taxes would rise.

But in making that plausible argument that Labour would make us poorer the Tories risk being as little believed as Cameron and Osborne were over the economic disaster that would "obviously" be triggered by Brexit, and has not materialized yet (though there is mounting evidence that the costs have been postponed rather than cancelled).

Too many in this country have suffered stagnating and declining living standards for too long. And they just want a leader who is promising to make things better.

May absolutely understood that last July when she made her famous first statement as prime minister outside 10 Downing Street, where she pledged to devote herself to those just about managing.

So it is both bizarre and a disaster for her that the only new and eye-catching policy in her manifesto was a social care policy that promised to make old people poorer.

To be clear, that policy was intellectually honest about the scale of the challenge and - many would say - a fair way of tackling the problem, by sheltering struggling younger people from the costs.

But as a symbol of what the country would be like under her stewardship, for many it was depressing. Too much wholesome bread, not enough circuses.

She has two other problems. In the current British climate where businesses and the wealthy are widely blamed for Britain's malaise, and where she has done almost nothing to counter this narrative, she can't and won't attack Labour's raid on the richest 5%.

And although many commentators felt that the tragic events in Manchester would see voters opt for her supposedly safe pair of hands at the the tiller in preference to the untested Corbyn, that is not an extrapolation that can be drawn from the EU plebiscite.

The Remain campaign thought the then prime minister Cameron and their side would pick up votes following the hideous murder of Jo Cox by a right wing fanatic, but in fact the murder did not shift the distribution of votes.

That said, Corbyn is taking a risk today with a speech where he will be seen as focusing too much on the UK's supposed responsibility for fomenting terrorism with military interventions in the Middle East, rather than on how how he would protect British citizens from future terror.

Also of course there are still almost two weeks left before polling day, and opinion poll leads ebb and flow.

But this election contest is anything but the foregone conclusion many wrote it off as being.

And if May were - as today's Times poll suggests would happen - to win with no more seats than she inherited from Cameron, that would be a personal humiliation for her, which she would struggle to survive for long.

We will certainly see what she is made of, in the days ahead."

Artisanjam · 26/05/2017 17:45

Sorry - that's much longer than I'd realised!!

RedToothBrush · 26/05/2017 17:56

I agree about the wording of the YouGov question. There will be a different answer to what you are saying.

Here's how it breakdowns though:

*Overall^
Wars the UK has supported or fought ARE responsible, at least in part, for terror attacks against the UK
53%

Wars the UK has supported or fought ARE NOT responsible for terror attacks against the UK
24%

Don't know
23%

By 2015 Vote
ARE responsible:
Lab - 66%
Con - 43%
LD - 60%
SNP - 71%
UKIP - 48%

NOT responsible:
Lab - 14%
Con - 38%
LD - 23%
SNP - 14%
UKIP - 33%

Don't know
Lab - 20%
Con - 19%
LD - 17%
SNP - 15%
UKIP - 19%

By Gender
ARE responsible
Male - 58%
Female - 48%

NOT responsible
Male - 25%
Female - 23%

Don't know
Male - 17%
Female - 29%

Age
ARE responsible
18 -24 - 51%
25 - 49 - 55%
50 - 65 - 53%
65+ - 50%

NOT responsible
18 -24 - 19%
25 - 49 - 18%
50 - 65 - 29%
65+ - 32%

Don't know
18 -24 - 30%
25 - 49 - 27%
50 - 65 - 18%
65+ - 18%

By social class
ARE responsible
ABC1 - 58%
C2DE - 46%

NOT responsible
ABC1 - 23%
C2DE - 25%

Don't know
ABC1 - 19%
C2DE - 29%

I don't think there many big surprises in there but there are notable slight differences.

  1. I expected UKIP to be the ones to least thing there is a connection. Its not. Its the CONs.
  2. That difference between Men and Women. Is this a reflection of women being less confident in their opinion over this, thinking it more complex or men having a greater insight about what might drive such things? Men are currently much more likely to be leaning Blue than Red.
  3. The 25 - 49 age group seem to be the one swinging slightly at the moment. They are the group who are most in tune with what Corbyn is saying. The 65+ are the group are the group who most disagree - but they are already pretty committed to May. The 25 - 49 age group had been leaning conservative a couple of weeks ago, but seem to have started to lean towards Lab.

Overall I'd guess - even with the question effectively being the wrong one - that Corbyn's stance isn't going to work against him. It also suggests that dropped IRA or Hamas dead cats won't either: The Conservative thinking is out of touch on this score and perhaps stuck in its own echo chamber.

Equally though, I also think from looking at those figure there's also not a huge amount to be gained here either. Its not going to win huge numbers of votes. It might be a tipping point for a small number but not enough.

Corbyn still has to find 5% to beat May on the popular vote (lets ignore seats for now). There's not 5% here. It could have enough of an effect in current Labour marginals to save a few though.

OP posts:
Charmageddon · 26/05/2017 18:22

Overall I'd guess...Corbyn's stance isn't going to work against him. It also suggests that dropped IRA or Hamas dead cats won't either: The Conservative thinking is out of touch on this score and perhaps stuck in its own echo chamber.

I agree.

On another thread a poster has said (paraphrased):

It's about time you lot got over the IRA thing, I'm too young to remember all that.

But it's exactly that sort of thing wrt JC why I cannot stand him.
I don't like many things about him, but his courting of terrorists and mourning their 'fallen soldiers' when innocent people (including babies) were being mercilessly shot & blown up is something I can never forget or overlook.