LibDems wanting a second referendum - Please explain the logic

[optionalrationale]

The LibDems believe the UK should remain part of the EU. While they accept the outcome of the the June 2016 Referendum, they also want the final terms of our exit deal to go to a second Referendum in the hope that we say "OK let's Remain after all".

Can anyone explain the logic of this position at this stage of the negotiations? Surely this encourages the EU to make our exit terms the very worst they can make them, basically holding us to ransom until the second referendum would be deliver the capitulation they and the LibDems are hankering for.

Things won't go back. There was the person who blamed DEFRA for something, thinking it was an EU body. Not realising that DEFRA will still be with us after Brexit.

If you don't vote, no one knows whether it's a protest, or you can't be bothered, which makes a world of difference. By all means go an spoil your vote, if you feel strongly.

The 'you lost, now fuck off' attitude is, to my mind, one of the biggest contributory factors to attitudes becoming more entrenched and for the extreme division we now have.

It's rather odd how the people who say this aren't actually going off "making Brexit a success" as they urge Remainers to do but seem to spend most of their time on social media looking for people to wind up.

There's also an odd idea of assuming that reality changes if you don't mention it. I have no idea if the likes of Ian Dunt are correct in predicting chaos. But if he is right, him shutting up will not actually prevent that chaos. It might be more reassuring if our lords and masters actually explained why the likes of him are wrong rather than exhorting them to shut up.

There's also an odd idea of assuming that reality changes if you don't mention it. I have no idea if the likes of Ian Dunt are correct in predicting chaos. But if he is right, him shutting up will not actually prevent that chaos. It might be more reassuring if our lords and masters actually explained why the likes of him are wrong rather than exhorting them to shut up.

You mean, be accountable for their actions and explain their decision making?

You mean, dispel the High Court's perception that May acted "irrationally" in her decision making and "misunderstood information" whilst at the Home Office.

Why on earth would Remainers have cause for concern at the moment?

Today 09:20 Kaija
What decisions have they taken, anon, that you felt were wrong

I'll have a go. For me the key decision they got wrong was in the fundamental design principle. I would have no problem at all with the EU if it was designed on the same basis as ASEAN - ie a trade community not a suprastate

Today 14:31 Peregrina
If you don't vote, no one knows whether it's a protest, or you can't be bothered, which makes a world of difference. By all means go an spoil your vote, if you feel strongly

I do not vote in elections for the EU Parliament because it is a toothless institution, a waste of money and largely symbolic. The European Commission is not even obliged to accept its recommendations.

The numbers speak for themselves. The vast majority of voters in EU are not bothering to vote in EU elections. Turnout is on a steep downward trajectory

Dunno. If you don't use your vote when you've got one, whatever your reasons, it's pretty illogical complaining about a lack of democracy.

I happen to feel strongly about voting. People fought hard for the franchise, and I think the least we can do is use our vote. I have no problem with spoiling a vote. I don't think I have ever done so myself, but it's a legitimate protest. I couldn't say that I agreed with having elected Police Commissioners. I had no idea who to vote for because none of them had sent any literature around, but I did go to vote. A friend spoiled her ballot in protest and said why. So I have no patience whatever with those who can't be bothered and then complain.

I suppose the rationale really is optional.

Today 18:38 Motheroffourdragons
"How can you complain that something is undemocratic and then not vote"

Because your "vote" is largely symbolic. The former Soviet Union had "elections" but the people they were voting for didn't have any real power as all decisions were made by the Executive.

Like the majority of voters in the EU (nearly 90% in some EU members), the EU citizens recognise that the EU parliament is an irrelevant cost.

I do make sure I vote when I know it will make a difference (like the June 2016 Referendum).

Motheroffourdragons
And then decide to get out ?

Because (as shown repeatedly by the EU Parliament), there is no mechanism, mandate or appetite for change. The institution is flawed by design. There are too many vested interests to ever rock the boat.

optional it is beyond tedious that you keep on asserting the fact your issue with the EU is the principle rather than the reality of the current situation.

If you're convinced your principles will be so strong when every person in this country starts to feel the bite then that's your prerogative.

I'd love to haul you up in front of those who will be most affect by this in a few years time and see how much your 'feelings' were worth then.

"I'd love to haul you up in front of those who will be most affect by this in a few years time and see how much your 'feelings' were worth then"

That sounds a bit scary Bearbehind. "Haul you up" ? "See how much your feelings are worth"?..

Which former European regime are you emulating there...?

optional you can employ your deflecting tactics all you like, the fact is, you and no other leavers have any answers.

No one can explain how the massive obstacles can be overcome which indicates they actually can't.

TM is grinding your expectations down so far that they'd still fit under a snakes belly.

Who is the fool here?

Today 20:30 Bearbehind
"You and no other leavers have any answers...No one can explain how the massive obstacles can be overcome which indicates they actually can't"

What will you do Bearbehind? Haul me up in front of Junkers?
Do you have ways of making me talk?

How can you complain that something is undemocratic and then not vote

Because even a spoiled EU vote validates the undemocratic EU. All a spoiled EU vote indicates is you dont like any of the candidates, not that you dont like the EU. A low turn out is a better indication of EU disgust.

You might as well vote for the cutest cat on YouTube for all the effect it has on the EU. FFS UKIP won the last EU election and it had ZERO affect on changing the EU. At best we vote for 10% of a body that does not run the EU. So where is the democracy?

Its actually worse, like in Russia, the pretense of voting in the EU validates a dictatorship , well its not a democracy. Oh the policies are benign in the beginning but then when they get absolute power and they are corrupted absolutely....?

Greece is a good example, they had a referendum refusing to accept the EUs bailout conditions but Juncker decided "the Greek referendum did not meet European standards" and imposed the conditions anyway. The EU now runs Greece and is treating its citizens appallingly.

Because even a spoiled EU vote validates the undemocratic EU. All a spoiled EU vote indicates is you dont like any of the candidates, not that you dont like the EU. A low turn out is a better indication of EU disgust.

100%

anon iirc the OP didn't even spoil her vote, she just couldn't be arsed.

You, her and all the rest can continue with your indefensible arguments for only so long.

All that's needed to prove you are wrong is time.

All that's needed to prove you are wrong is time

I am willing to accept that challenge, and change my opinion if the facts change. To quote a phrase.

Are you?

a low turn out is a better indication of EU disgust.

That shows just how skewed your thinking is.

What that actually indicates is most people arent sufficiently interested to make the effort to go to the polling station.

I guarantee they'll become much more interested when their apathy bites them on the arse.

anon I'll gladly be proved wrong, not least because I'll be better off if I am.

Nearly a year on and there are still no answers, still no promises, still no guarantees, just an overload of hyperbole, rhetoric and patriotic bollocks.

Where exactly do you think this epiphany is going to come from?

What that actually indicates is most people aren't sufficiently interested to make the effort to go to the polling station.

Maybe some but not all. I see your focus is on the turnout, which direction away from the reality that their vote is irrelevant. Classic diversion.