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Brexit
Original poster

LibDems wanting a second referendum - Please explain the logic

466 replies

optionalrationale · 06/05/2017 15:02

The LibDems believe the UK should remain part of the EU. While they accept the outcome of the the June 2016 Referendum, they also want the final terms of our exit deal to go to a second Referendum in the hope that we say "OK let's Remain after all".

Can anyone explain the logic of this position at this stage of the negotiations? Surely this encourages the EU to make our exit terms the very worst they can make them, basically holding us to ransom until the second referendum would be deliver the capitulation they and the LibDems are hankering for.

OP posts:
Anon213 · 09/05/2017 12:26

I see we still have no answer as to why the EU would negotiate a good deal, if they wanted us to decide its a bad deal and vote to keep us in the EU.

If people change their minds after 5 years and decide the deal we agree isn't working. Why can't we revisit it with a new government? Everyone can then vote Lib Dem on a manifesto policy to negotiate a change to the deal and take us into the single market? So its hardly once in a life time now is it.

Whilst I hear remainers complaining about leavers not knowing what they voted for, I dont see Scotland demanding a two referendum process before leaving the UK. One to start leaving the UK and another once the exit deal had been negotiated, otherwise how would Scotland know what it was voting for? So the SNP actually agree with Leavers that a single referendum process is the best way to do it. Or is there some hypocrites on here?

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 12:31

I would give you the example of the C of E voting for Women Bishops - which needed a two thirds majority

Oh god, remainers think we should be locked into the EU for 2,000 years before we are allowed to leave. If the C of E was more democratic women wouldn't have had to put up so many years of male oppression.

Kaija · 09/05/2017 12:32

"I see we still have no answer as to why the EU would negotiate a good deal, if they wanted us to decide its a bad deal and vote to keep us in the EU. "

That "if" is doing a lot of work in your sentence there.

Kaija · 09/05/2017 12:34

Remember you've already told us that a bad deal for you would be exactly the kind of compromise that many of us would regard as a good deal. Even if the 27 were going to gear their entire negotiating strategy towards "a bad deal", what would that look like?

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 12:41

A bad deal would look something like, still paying large budget contributions for restrictive trade with barriers and not being allowed to do our own free trade arrangements with the rest of the world.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 12:43

That "if" is doing a lot of work in your sentence there.

Yes as previously discussed the EU might not want us back. And I find the idea of a second referendum to force the EU to take us back against their will even more ridiculous.

AccioMerlot · 09/05/2017 13:27

No, I don't think the deal we get from our negotiations will be in any way influenced by whether it has to get past the British people or not. Well, not on the EU side anyway.
I bet if TM knew she had to get her deal through a referendum, there'd be a different tack on immigration than otherwise, for example.

AccioMerlot · 09/05/2017 13:29

And I'm not sure why Brexiters are so incensed by the suggestion of a referendum on the final deal?

You've been reassuring us all that leaving the EU will be the best thing ever, so surely the referendum will be a piece of cake to win? Just show us the great deal, we'll vote for it, not an issue.

MariafromMalmo · 09/05/2017 13:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 13:36

I don't think the deal we get from our negotiations will be in any way influenced by whether it has to get past the British people or not
Which is the whole point to this thread. So why do you think that, or is it just a 'feeling'? The EU would have a vested interest in the outcome of a deal and an active involvement in creating the deal. So how can they not be influenced?

I'm not sure why Brexiters are so incensed by the suggestion of a referendum on the final deal Is it not obvious? Because we think a second referendum will influence the EU into making sure we get a bad deal. And we dont want a bad deal.

AccioMerlot · 09/05/2017 13:41

Because the EU has a vested interest in getting the best deal for its members either way - that's basically the point of being the EU.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 13:41

If the referendum took place before Art 50 + 2 years it would be to cancel Brexit And it only takes one person to say that A50 is irrevocable and the matter would have to go to the ECJ, where we would have to fight the EU in court to take us back whether they want us or not.

And if the two years ran out before a decision was made we would have left the EU and the ECJ would have no Jurisdiction over the UK to even make a ruling

MariafromMalmo · 09/05/2017 13:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 13:48

Because the EU has a vested interest in getting the best deal for its members either way - that's basically the point of being the EU

But no interest in getting a good deal for the members that are leaving, and a vested interest in giving the UK a bad deal. Pus its conflicted in punishing us as deterrent to other countries thinking of escaping.

So again why wouldn't the EU be influenced by a second referendum to arrange a bad deal.

museumum · 09/05/2017 13:48

Lib Dem are not going to win the GE. Even Tim Farron said that he believes Theresa May will win as she called it and wouldn't have done if she wasn't riding high in the polls.

So LD are NOT going to be the negotiators in Europe, so they are not handing any power to the rest of the EU in the negotiations. However the point of opposition MPs in parliament is not just to put up and shut up and sit quietly. The point of them is to actually hold the government to account. And if TM gets an EU deal that does not match what people were hoping for when they voted in the referendum then it is the job of the opposition to not let her away with that.

Oh, and for the record, I am a remainer, not a remoaner. Just because leave one does not mean I have to like it. Just like each time a new party wins a general election all those on the opposition side don't suddenly have to switch allegiance.

museumum · 09/05/2017 13:48

won, not one - daft autocorrect.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 13:52

Nope, that's not true. Why do you think that?
I know its true because people are doing it ie Jolyon Maugham.

AccioMerlot · 09/05/2017 13:56

OK, you said, "I see we still have no answer as to why the EU would negotiate a good deal, if they wanted us to decide its a bad deal and vote to keep us in the EU. "

The thing is, you can just put a full stop in that sentence:
I see we still have no answer as to why the EU would negotiate a good deal if they wanted us to decide its a bad deal and vote to keep us in the EU

I'ts in the EU's interests to give themselves a 'good deal' and us a 'bad deal'. Full stop.

I can't see why you think giving the British people a say in accepting/rejecting that deal would make any difference? "well, we were going to let them walk away without paying their financial commitments, but since they have to have a referendum on it...!"
Doesn't really work, does it.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 14:02

they are not handing any power to the rest of the EU in the negotiations Of course they are not, but this is a debate about the logic of the argument. Probably to point out that they are just trying to recover from their massacre 2 years ago rather than a belief in the merits of the position.

And if TM gets an EU deal that does not match what people were hoping for when they voted in the referendum then it is the job of the opposition to not let her away with that. Completely agree with that. If that is the case Lib Dems or Labour can campaign to negotiate a different deal at the subsequent elections and see if people agree with them.

Perhaps Lib Dems will even campaign to try and take us back into the EU and say that it will only happen if a referendum got 2/3's of the vote on a 70+% turnout.

twofingerstoEverything · 09/05/2017 14:05

Anon213 Oh god, remainers think

Remainers are not a hive mind.

Kaija · 09/05/2017 14:07

"I'm not sure why Brexiters are so incensed by the suggestion of a referendum on the final deal Is it not obvious? Because we think a second referendum will influence the EU into making sure we get a bad deal. And we dont want a bad deal."

Yeah. That's obviously not the reason though.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 14:10

Sorry AccioMerlot cant make sense of the point you were trying to make in your last post.

HPFA · 09/05/2017 14:12

Slightly off the main topic but interesting:

twitter.com/timothy_stanley/status/861646742613360641

This call for Remainers to "get behind" Brexit is slightly odd. As many point out in the replies, what actual difference does it make whether we support it or not? Or does it mean that when we are told that having a successful Brexit means giving up say, an important environmental protection, it is somehow "disloyal" of us to oppose it?

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 14:13

Sorry twofingers, fair point, I will change it.

Oh god, one remainer thinks we should be locked into the EU for 2,000 years before we are allowed to leave.

Anon213 · 09/05/2017 14:16

Yeah. That's obviously not the reason though

Well it is for me. I can only see negatives, it would be a lose lose referendum.