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Brexit

Westministenders: Its WAR. Huh!? What is that good for? Negotiations apparently

996 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2017 22:39

Theresa May has declared war on the EU. She is going to be a ‘bloody difficult woman’ after she got caught out by a highly predictable leak.

Apparently, the EU are trying to rig an election she seems almost dead cert to win. They deliberately timed the leak to interfere with an election May decided the timing of. May was not supposed to be at the dinner, but after she announced the election she decided that she had to get in on the act for some reason. Wildly speculating here, but could this be because she wanted the political mileage herself?

No it wasn't a preplanned strategy. Don't be stupid. That would suggest they had the foggiest clue and a plan. Nope, the war declaration was an opportunist damage limitation exercise, used to maximise political capital.

She has now even further alienated the EU. It seems difficult to conceive how any deal will be done. Instead it looks like the election is trying to set us up to crash out. Whether the ‘No deal is better than a bad deal’ happens to make the 3 page Tory Manifesto remains to be seen.

This would leave EU nationals and British national aboard in legal and social limbo.

There is also a feud building over the Brexit leaving bill, which is steadily climbing. We can not progress to the second stage of Brexit without resolving this. Again, this seems unlikely.

Thirdly, a settlement with Ireland is a top priority for the EU, and plans are being drawn up to make allowances for any potential United Ireland. This is a subject that is still to be talked about on any level really. May has been much more interested in the fate of Scotland and battling with Nicola Sturgeon.

That’s the thing. May is like the playground bully who goes around going “Do you wanna scrap ?, Do ya? DO YA?” and generally throws their weight around and most of the time gets their own way as a result. The trouble with the strategy is when the bigger kid comes along and thumps the bully, for being a cocky little shit and doesn’t like their kid brother getting picked on.

The trouble is that May is setting it up, to try and make it look like the poor little Britain has been picked on to her parents, so they go around accusing the big kid of all sorts rather than admitting their little darling is a nasty little shit.

It’s not going to end well is it? You can’t help but feel that at some point they’ll all end up in the Headmasters office and the WTO/UN/International Courts will rule against us for being a bunch of dickheads. No doubt May, will stick to character, hold a grudge and demand to leave them or say they have no authority over the UK.

That or we really will end up declaring war on Spain over Gibraltar. By accident of course. Probably to keep the ConKip party together and avoid a split.

Rule Britannia. Britannia rules. Erm, not a lot these days.

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BiglyBadgers · 09/05/2017 08:39

While I understand why individuals choose to send their children to private schools (we considered it ourselves for dd), on the social level I don't think they are a good thing.

I believe they have a negative impact on the rest of the schools system and society as a whole. Private schools take the wealthy and very intelligent out of the state school system. They are also able to attract the best teachers. This leaves children in the state schools at a disadvantage as they are not learning alongside children with different abilities and those from different classes, and they do not have access to the best teaching staff. It is a similar thing to grammer schools where it has been shown that children in state schools that have a grammer school close by do worse than children in state schools in an area without a grammer school. Private schools have also long been a bases for networking and creating 'old boys clubs' that foster elitism and increase prejudice against the poor who can't afford access to these groups.

BiglyBadgers · 09/05/2017 08:40

Sorry, I realise I am derailing and this isn't really a discussion about the pros and cons of private schools.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 09/05/2017 08:42

I have to add I disagree with him on the brexit issue and feel that we should be allowed to change our mind if brexit is going to destroy the country.

This ^ x1000.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 09/05/2017 08:47

It's also why I think we should have a second referendum on the terms of the actual deal on the table (with costed impact), not the rainbows & unicorns version we were fed last year, before we take the country out of the EU. Last year's campaign was manipulative, fabricated bollocks.

HashiAsLarry · 09/05/2017 09:09

The question now is what sort of Brexit do we want - and what sort of country do we want Britain to be after Brexit?
That isn't the question now. That was the question 10 fucking months ago Angry

Kaija · 09/05/2017 09:09

Yes. Having seen the results of Carole Cadwalladr's investigations though, I think there is an awful lot to sort out before we can be confident of a fair vote the second time round, and very little political will to do it.

Kaija · 09/05/2017 09:09

(That was to illegitimate)

Kaija · 09/05/2017 09:11

Quite hashi. The Real Fight starts... after I've been down the allotment and had a cup of tea etc etc

Artisanjam · 09/05/2017 09:12

Corbyn's approach to Brexit sets out why I wouldn't vote for him tbh.

He comes out the morning after the referendum and says 'the British people have made their decision. We must respect the result and invoke article 50 now' not 'close result, we need to hold the govt to account and deliver a Brexit which works for the whole country, not just the tory's rich mates'

He orders his party to vote for article 50 without amendment and then goes to a rally to protest against it.

He seems to be incapable of leading the opposition unless it's completely compatible with his conscience and uk politics just doesn't work like that.

Artisanjam · 09/05/2017 09:19

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/09/labour-wales-industry

Interesting article by Aditya Chakrabortty in the Guardian today on why the conservatives aren't winning in the labour heartlands but Labour are losing.

HashiAsLarry · 09/05/2017 09:19

He seems to be incapable of leading the opposition unless it's completely compatible with his conscience and uk politics just doesn't work like that.
Very true artisan.

And worryingly we have someone running the country who is also in a similar mold - she'll happily and blinkeredly lead us to destruction in order to get what she feels in is important.

BiglyBadgers · 09/05/2017 09:59

He seems to be incapable of leading the opposition unless it's completely compatible with his conscience and uk politics just doesn't work like that.

Yes, I like Corbyn as a person. I agree with many (not all) of his views, but in a democracy sometimes you have to advocate for things you may not fully support, because as a leader you are the representative of your party and country not an individual. It feels like a strange criticism to say someone is too honest, but he just seems incapable of selling something he does not 100% believe in and you can't represent a country like that. This is why I am often a bit conflicted about him. I like the man, but he is a terrible leader.

RedToothBrush · 09/05/2017 10:03

Not all private education is a 'luxury'. My children were given a bursary to go to a particular school because they have particular sensory problems, adhd and asd, they were also bullied in the local school. Without the help of this school they would have been deprived of an education as they were refusing to go to school at all.

All this says is that state schools are not geared up to cater for the needs of many children.

The children who end up with bursaries to go to a private school are merely the ones who have parents who advocate for their children and understand there is a problem. They are generally from middle class backgrounds and are able to argue their case and be taken seriously.

That does nothing for the children who skip school for similar reasons but are simply written off for being problem children. If their parents don't care, or simply lack confidence and awareness to push the issue or the parents aren't taken seriously because they perhaps are a young struggling single mother who isn't articulate for example then the children don't get bursaries.

It is a luxury for kids to get special treatment like this as so many don't. It relies on this type of private system being available locally. In many places it's just not.

None of this is right. The facilities and capacity should be within the state system because giving a bursary to a private school means someone is making a profit and the state system has a reason not to provide universal access to similar teaching methods and only to give access to people who know how to get through and work with the system. It creates hurdles that not everyone will get through.

A bursary based system effectively let's down and writes off kids even more than a grammar school system does. Great if you can get it, but lots can't and won't.

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RedToothBrush · 09/05/2017 10:21

Joel Winston @ MedicalReport
Unreal. "The Observer saw memo saying CA obj was “voter disengagement” & “to persuade voters to stay at home.”" @carolecadwalla @profcarroll

Keep on trucking...

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Badders123 · 09/05/2017 10:57

Agree totally re private education red
Sadly CA may achieve its goal....

Badders123 · 09/05/2017 10:58

I'm torn.
So torn.
I just about come to terms with voting labour and then JC starts spouting utter shite and I getbthe rage again.
But a lib dem vote here would be pointless
Arghhhhhhh

Kaija · 09/05/2017 11:04

Remember you're voting for your MP, not the PM

Badders123 · 09/05/2017 11:05

But....but....they've all towed his bloody line haven't they?
Re brexit for example.
I'm

twofingerstoEverything · 09/05/2017 11:06

Artisanjam - completely agree with your post of 09.12. I believe Corbyn could have 'respected the result', but still been vociferous on the terms of exit and still have spoken up for the 48% if he's such a strong believer in democracy.
I saw him at a rally last August. He did not mention Brexit at all, even though it's probably the biggest constitutional issue of our lifetimes. That, coupled with the MN webchat he did around the same time, when he also skirted around Brexit-related questions, led me to decide I could no longer support him, despite voting for him in the first leadership election.

Mistigri · 09/05/2017 11:08

baddets Corbyn is useless I agree but he's not going to get a majority. Stop imitating the French left by sitting on your hands in the face of a clear threat to democracy. If the best tory alternative is labour, then choose the lesser of two evils.

RedToothBrush · 09/05/2017 11:18

I just about come to terms with voting labour and then JC starts spouting utter shite and I getbthe rage again.
But a lib dem vote here would be pointless

Approach it rationally. Write a list of all the positive reasons to vote Labour and then all the negative ones. Do the same with the Lib Dems.

In my opinion I don't necessarily think there is such a thing as a 'wasted' vote in this general election if you aren't voting Tory. Simply helping to get deposits back are helpful. It also shows that you support certain policies etc.

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LurkingHusband · 09/05/2017 11:18

When did any advisory poll become sacrosanct ?

There are many issues where the "will of the people" is waaaaaaaay more than 52% but gets batted away by whoever is in power as "not representative", or more usually "not going to happen".

If the Labour party had behaved like a credible opposition, they would have kept the Tories in line during the referendum campaign, and - when it was clear the entire exercise was descending into farce - they could have come up with a clear plan to lead us out of this mess.

They didn't behave like a credible opposition then. They aren't behaving like a credible opposition now, and - applying LHs law of form follows form - there is no reason to believe they will behave like a credible opposition on June 9th. Whoever is in charge.

Part of the problem is over the past decades, a load of fellow-travellers have sneaked into Tory and Labour parties and subverted their core ideals. I appreciate politics has to evolve to fit society. But it seems the UK has advanced such that society is now expected to fit in with politics.

There's even an instruction manual on how to do it. It's called "Decline and Fall" ....

BiglyBadgers · 09/05/2017 11:31

At the moment I am just voting for an opposition. Credibility does not seem to be on offer from any of the parties right now Hmm

Motheroffourdragons · 09/05/2017 11:32

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