Were there any LD supporters who voted Leave?

[optionalrationale]

I am a "natural" Labour supporter and former party member. I supported Labour Leave in the EU Ref and will be voting Conservative for the first time in my life in the GE. I wondered if there were any LD Leavers. I know this might be rare but I wondered if there were any at all. Or is LD Leaver an impossible combination.

See this
Dannythechampion

"It is complicated, you demonstrate that with your lack of understanding of how it works"

See this sums up the problem of the EU... "Trust us. It is good. If you ask questions, you have to understand that it is complicated. Don't worry your pretty little head about the details. If you disagree with us, you must be stupid. Some people who disagree with us (not you of course), but some people who disagree with us are racist, xenophobic, insular Little Englanders. Don't be like them..Put your trust in this institution you don't understand and we can't explain"

I am glad I finally extracted an answer from you. So now you go on about a lack of democracy but admit that you sometimes did 'when you could be bothered' and now don't agree with it. So you actually do nothing. This is a bit like not bothering to vote in any other election. If you can't be bothered a legitimate assumption is that you have no opinion or don't mind the status quo - you are not registering anything with the electoral body. That's why I believe spoiling a vote is a legitimate protest - your voting slip gets counted against the number issued, and if there is a tight vote all the papers get examined to see whether your spoilt paper could be construed as a vote. That's why it's not a good idea to write 'XXX is a wanker' by a candidate's name, just in case you inadvertently get it counted for said wanker.

I have no problem with voting for a winning party.

I wish you could tell my MP that she is my employee - she rather appears to have forgotten that, in that she rarely if ever answers letters or emails and even if she does, they don't address the questions asked. She also refused to meet me at a surgery.

On the contrary I have twice written to one of my MEPs and twice had prompt replies - one withing the hour, which I must say, impressed me hugely. I did not bother to write to Hannan or Farage, although I think that Hannan does attempt to discharge his duties, which can't be said for Farage.

Optional Time and time again, Danny, you resort to the Remainers favourite "argument" which is "You don't get. It's complicated. You don't understand. You're thick"

This is why most people don't bother to engage with you. No-one has said 'you're thick'. No-one.

You have just resorted to your usual GF tactics here.

Today 14:48 Dannythechampion

"You voted for a party. The executive of the "winning" party (based on an overly complicated voting system) decided who your "representative" would be."

Which is what happens in the UK. Remind me about how many different seats the minister for the 1940s stood in before he got elected? "

No.
In the General Election, if you are eligible to vote, you vote for the named individual on that ballot paper. If he/she is affiliated to a party, he/she may have been nominated by that party. If he/she is an independent, he/she will still have to get nominations from constituents before appearing on the ballot.

Who/What is the "Minister for the 1940s" ?

"Trust us. It is good. If you ask questions, you have to understand that it is complicated. Don't worry your pretty little head about the details. If you disagree with us, you must be stupid"

No one has said this is how the EU works, it is complicated, how the UK law works is complicated too, you are over simplifying it for your own ends.

"Put your trust in this institution you don't understand and we can't explain"

But it can be explained, it has been to you on several occasions and you still refuse to acknowledge that it doesn't work how you think it does.

The candidate for each party was on my ballot in the last EU election

The candidates selected by the constituencies are approved by the parties. Same as they are for the EU elections.

I am not impressed by the 'I register a protest by not bothering'. I have lived in places where my candidate hasn't had a hope in hell of getting elected. I had been voting for something like 30 years before a candidate of my choice was elected. I don't like the FPTP system, especially when you know it's going to be a wasted vote, but I still believe that we had to fight for a universal franchise and that exercising your vote is important for democracy.

I'm not Scottish or in Scotland, but I remember the time when the SNP was a bit of a curiosity. Now they have 54 MPs in Westminster. If you had told someone that back in 1970 it would have been greeted with incredulity. So someone thought it was worthwhile voting.

Breshit
"This is why most people don't bother to engage with you. No-one has said 'you're thick'. No-one"
Read almost any post of Danny the MN Champion of the EU and how he/she rounds it off. It is almost typically some version of "this is genius in it's idiocy" or similar.

So it is a strange tactic. If it works for you keep it up. I think if there is one lesson the Remain camp needs to learn is that you can't embarrass / silence the voice of opposition by portraying it as idiotic or racist.

DannyMNChampionoftheEU
Who / what is the Minster for the 1940s you mention in your post today (22nd April , 2017 at 14:48)?

"you can't embarrass / silence the voice of opposition by portraying it as idiotic or racist."

Yes, I agree, because most people aren't rationale and form opinions first and then look for facts to back them up. Largely evident with the leave vote during the referendum, when all of what was said about:

Immigration
Democracy
The EU contribution and what we can do with it.
Future Trade deals
Ability to negotiate a much, much better deal with the EU etc
TTIP and the NHS

Was all proved to be massively incorrect, or utterly implausible, and done so many times, yet people still use these arguments ( well some not so much) when conversing here when they are not likely to be challenged.

Peregrina
I answered your question. Please answer mine

1. By whom was Junkers elected?
2. What alternatives did those voters have if they didn't want Junkers?
3. What mechanism is there for me (an ordinary EU citizen) to stand against Junkers? Specifically where/how do I get on a ballot paper to give the people an alternative to him personally?

1. The President of the European Commission is elected by the European Parliament after nomination by the EU Council.

2. Alternatives to Junkers included Guy Verhofstadt, Martin Schultz and others. The aliance of European Conservatives and reformists didn't nominate a candidate.

3. I'm interested that you are going down this route, because technically you don't vote for the Prime Minister either, but that's a poor conflation because the President of the Commission doesn't have anything near the power of a Prime Minister.

You also don't get tovote agaist the Prime Minister Personally.

1. I told you who Junckers was elected by - which was the 26 of those the equivalent position to David Cameron. I am quite sure a google search will give you their names since it's a matter of vital importance to you.

2. They would have voted for a different candidate as Cameron did.

3. I told you to get yourself elected to Parliament, become PM and then you have a vote, except you have missed the boat now.

But since you now choose not to use the democratic vote you do have, and only used it in the past 'when you could be bothered', I suggest that the matter isn't of great importance to you.

Incidentally, I for one will not argue that Theresa May, wasn't elected, which has been argued often, and was also with Gordon Brown. They were members of the largest party which had been asked to form a Government, and then were elected by the processes laid down by their respective parties. The fact that May was effectively returned unopposed, and the ordinary party members didn't get a vote, was just an unfortunate side effect of a candidate dropping out.

Danny and Peregrina
Thanks for proving my point. The most powerful positions in the EU are appointed / "elected" by other appointees. You were critical of Theresa May for not having her own mandate. Now she is getting one, you are still critical. As explained earlier, you and I could both stand directly against TM as candidates in her constituency to give ordinary citizen voters a right to vote for us directly. Ordinary EU citizen voters have no mechanism to be able to do that with Tusk / Junkers.

While I accept that the received wisdom of the dominant cosmopolitan, progressive, affluent, educated elite is that the EU is all good, I do wonder how any body who genuinely believes in liberalism (in its broadest sense), could be in favour of such an inherently undemocratic institution as the EU.

You can read optional. Would you like to read my last paragraph about Theresa May. She does not yet have her own mandate and had decided to repudiate Cameron's mandate, which presumably she was perfectly happy with before having been in Government prior to the 2015 election. But then this is the woman who preaches about stability, has been photographed with placards promoting Remain, but is now a hard-line Brexiter, (but doesn't like that description), states five times that there will be no election until 2020 and then decides after all that there will be, and furthermore, decides to call it before even her own party members are ready, and are now struggling to find candidates. A strange idea of strong and stable.

I have no idea what our arguments 'prove' in your mind. I'll keep my opinions to myself as to what you have proved about yourself.

OP, I'm heartily sick of posters like you who try and prove the EU was overly bureaucratic but can't actually give examples of how that ever affected the average person.

You're hell bent on trying to prove the EU is corrupt and unelected etc but that is a circular argument because no one on here has ever said it is perfect.

The argument now hinges on how much we gain by leaving versus what we stand to lose.

Could you tell us what upsides there are going to be that counter

• inflation caused directly by Brexit
• lack of investment due to uncertainty
• loss of EU agencies the government seem naive enough to think won't happen, including financial passporting
• lack of plan to deal with NI

Sorry all I have requested to get last post deleted. Copy and paste error

Bearbehind

"OP, I'm heartily sick of posters like you who try and prove the EU was overly bureaucratic but can't actually give examples of how that ever affected the average person"

Here's one. The monthly move of the EU parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg costs the EU taxpayer between €150-€250M (depending on which estimate you read) per year. The majority of the MEPs see it as an anachronism , waste of time and money. They not only move all 700 MEPs but also their encourages and boxes of paper files. Every month.

As ever OP, you've completely missed the point- could you attempt to answer the questions about how the adverse affects will be outweighed by the benefits of leaving.

I'm more than a little about your motives on here anyway- no one normal makes a 'copy and paste error' like the above.

We never said that the EU was perfect, but your attempts to make it seem anti democratic are hilarious.

Especially as you didn't bother to vote "in protest".

Bearbehind
"Could you attempt to answer the questions about how the adverse affects will be outweighed by the benefits of leaving"

The biggest benefit of leaving will be to return power to the ordinary voters of the UK. I trust them far more than unelected, appointed bureaucrats in Brussels (and Strasbourg)

Even if you take the worst case scenario of the example you've given OP, it equates to less than 50p per person in the EU per year.

Some food items have increased by more than 50p as a direct result of Brexit- so buying 1 unit of 1 food item 1 time in a year has cost more than paying for the example you've given.

I'll ask you again; how do the benefits outweigh the costs?

"Your attempts to make it seem anti democratic are hilarious"

I am glad you find it funny. I am delighted we are leaving.

I never said I didn't vote out of protest. I didn't vote in the EU Parliamentary elections because that body has fuck all power. All the power to propose, amend and repeal laws lies solely with the EU Commission (made up of 28 unelected by the people) bureaucrats

Commissioners are appointed by the national governments, who are democratically elected, as I said, its the same as appointing the civil service.

The parliament can recommend legislation, it can amend legislation.