Were there any LD supporters who voted Leave?

[optionalrationale]

I am a "natural" Labour supporter and former party member. I supported Labour Leave in the EU Ref and will be voting Conservative for the first time in my life in the GE. I wondered if there were any LD Leavers. I know this might be rare but I wondered if there were any at all. Or is LD Leaver an impossible combination.

[optionalrationale]

Today 12:55 Peregrina

Just told you - Junckers as it happens wasn't elected by Cameron, but he did have a vote.

Three questions. I would really like an answer to all three please.

1. By whom was Junkers elected?
   
2. What alternatives did those voters have if they didn't want Junkers?
   
3. What mechanism is there for me (an ordinary EU citizen) to stand against Junkers?

[Peregrina]

Who has voted in every election for MEPs? I have. Last time I had the pleasure of seeing two people I voted for win seats. Sadly, I also have to suffer Farage and Hannan, but you can't win them all.

[Dannythechampion]

"How could I (as an ordinary EU citizen) stand against them?"

How can you stand against the head of the civil service?

How can you stand against the leader of the House of Lords?

BTW Germany had univesal suffrage in 1919,Netherlands in 1917, Poland in 1918, France got it in 1945.

So no we didn't get it LONG BEFORE any of the others.

[Peregrina]

You have been answered ably by Danny. Stand for election yourself, get elected, make a pitch for leader of your party..... Bob's your uncle, you too can vote against Junckers, as Cameron did. Well, could, because we are not going to have a say in future, unless Theresa May's two year timetable goes tits up and then, it's anyone's guess what happens.

[optionalrationale]

Today 13:04 Peregrina
"Yes, I could, but I think it is better to stand in the places you live in and know the area.

My Constituency has chosen its Candidate, so I am out of luck there"

Peregrina - Good news. You're not out of luck at all! The joys of British parliamentary democracy is that there is no limit to the number of candidates who can stand in any constituency. You have plenty of time to get your nominations together and get on the ballot in time for the general election. The process is remarkably quick and easy. I speak from personal experience.

Now tell me again, how could I stand against Junkers or Tusk?

[Peregrina]

I think you're out of luck now, because we have voted to leave the EU. So you have lost the chance. Otherwise, see above.

Did you vote for the Queen? I think we should be told.

[optionalrationale]

Today 13:07 Dannythechampion

"How can you stand against the head of the civil service?"
I can't. But the UK civil service does not make laws and set policy. It implements the legislative voted for by parliament, that is voted for by the people.

"How can you stand against the leader of the House of Lords?"
I can't. It should be abolished.

"BTW Germany had univesal suffrage in 1919,Netherlands in 1917, Poland in 1918, France got it in 1945.

So no we didn't get it LONG BEFORE .."

But unlike Germany we never denied anyone the vote for being a Jew.

[Dannythechampion]

Sad that you keep having to ask the same question.

Junker is the President of the Commission, a role which is much like the Head of the Civil Service.

The President of the Council is elected by the council, to chair the council, and is essentially an politically administrative post.

You are confusing them with directly elected politicians in other areas, your misunderstanding demonstrates your lack of knowledge and understanding of this ( as with so many other) topics.

[Dannythechampion]

"But the UK civil service does not make laws and set policy."

Ah, but you are misinterpreting the role of the Commission. The Commisson doesn't just think up laws and present them to the Parliament and Council, it is asked to draw up legislation by the Council and Parliament before submitting the proposals for approval. Much the same as parliament in the UK asks the Civil Service to draw up white papers to be voted on and and amended by parliament.

"But unlike Germany we never denied anyone the vote for being a Jew."

Pathetic point, just cause you were shown to be wrong, again.

[optionalrationale]

Today 13:16 Peregrina

"Did you vote for the Queen? I think we should be told."
No I did not. This is because, the Queen is a constitutional monarch. I happen to be a republican but the UK monarchy has no political power over the laws and rules that govern my day to day life. By law, the Queen is not allowed to comment on speak against the elected representatives of the people.

Now explain again how wonderfully democratic the EU is

[Bolshybookworm]

Our democracy might have worked in the 70s, optional, but our economy didn't.

My mum was telling me what life was like in the 50s for her family (father a clerk). They had next to nothing, lived off homegrown veg from the allotment- mealy potatos, parsnips and marrows. She still can't eat marrows to this day.
Gristly meat, tripe, brawn. One toy each year at Christmas and an orange was a huge treat. Bath once a week.

Yeah, can't wait to get back to those days

[optionalrationale]

Today 13:23 Dannythechampion

"Junker is the President of the Commission, a role which is much like the Head of the Civil Service.

The President of the Council is elected by the council, to chair the council, and is essentially an politically administrative post"

You are studiously avoiding speaking the truth that these posts yield massive amounts of power in the realm of political policy and how hundreds of millions of EU citizens. But unlike a UK MP, we the ordinary citizens of Europe have no means of getting rid of them.

[Bolshybookworm]

And yes, plenty of small minded little Englanders voted for Brexit. You may not be one of them but they exist, lots of them. I know because I had to sodding well grow up with them. So much fun to have people throw rocks at you just for dressing slightly differently.

That's what life is like in a lot of the boring bits of the uk (or more specifically England). Difference is not tolerated, be it racial, social, sexual or physical. I thought we were progressing away from that, but Brexit and the headlines and behaviour that have come afterwards would suggest otherwise.

[Bolshybookworm]

And with that, my contributions to this thread end. I was actually enjoying the convo with wrong and other leavers, it was constructive even if we don't always agree. Such a shame that it's gone tits up.

[Peregrina]

You have had plenty of explanations about the EU. It's still an organisation which is developing and even in its earliest incarnations is only 60 years old. Bear in mind that we have had some form of Parliamentary sovereignty for 800 odd years, but it was only in the early part of the 20th Century that we adopted universal suffrage.

But tell me whether you voted in any European elections, even better if you have voted in all you were eligible to vote for.

[Dannythechampion]

"You are studiously avoiding speaking the truth that these posts yield massive amounts of power in the realm of political policy and how hundreds of millions of EU citizens. "

As does the head of the civil service over UK citizens

"But unlike a UK MP, we the ordinary citizens of Europe have no means of getting rid of them."

Nor do you have a way of getting rid of the Head of the Civil Service as a UK citizen.

You being deliberately obtuse because you know your point is flawed.

[Peregrina]

Please tell me whether you voted in the EU elections.

I ask because I have got into these discussions on the internet before and have asked this question about 6 times now (either I need to get a life, or my life is politics). I have had one answer - which was a gem. "I don't vote because my voice isn't heard." To which I could only reply tartly that it wouldn't be heard if you didn't bother to speak.

The beauty of the EU elections was that it was by a PR system, so you had a chance of getting candidates that you wanted in. It is frustrating to be in an area where one party has a huge majority and you don't support them. But even then, opinions change, and change can come about.

[optionalrationale]

Dannythechampion

"The Commisson doesn't just think up laws and present them to the Parliament and Council, it is asked to draw up legislation by the Council and Parliament before submitting the proposals for approval."

In rather a obtuse way, Danny The MN Champion of the EU, is grudgingly admitting to the total lack of democratic accountability in the EU here.

Not one MEP is able to propose legislation. This democratic inversion (unelected bureaucrats initiating legislation) lies at the heart of the EU design. It is a design that was imposed by Franco/German ideal of government and completely opposite to the UK, US, Canada, Indian, Australian principles of how a government should be set up

[Peregrina]

Did you vote in the last EU elections?

Unlike the Referenedum it is an answer which is satisfied by a yes/no answer. I would count a spoilt ballot as a vote - the papers get issued and that gets counted.

[optionalrationale]

Danny
"Nor do you have a way of getting rid of the Head of the Civil Service as a UK citizen."

I will say again. By law, the Head of the UK Civil Service, has to be neutral and is there to implement the policies of the democratically elected UK government (the party / parties that can command a majority of the MPs in the House of Commons - which in turn has each MP directly elected by his her constituents)

The equivalent of the EU "civil service" actually wield the political power and the European parliament is nothing more than an "approving" body.

"You being deliberately obtuse because you know your point is flawed"

Time and time again, Danny, you resort to the Remainers favourite "argument" which is "You don't get. It's complicated. You don't understand. You're thick"

This didn't work for you in the EU Referendum and it will not work for you in the General Election. The voters are ready to call Bullshit on this tactic.

[Dannythechampion]

"Not one MEP is able to propose legislation."

The parliament and the council recommend to the commission that legislation is drawn up.

MPs in the UK propose legislation which is then drawn up into a white paper by the Civil Service. Its almost exactly the same process.

In both processes the legislation is recommended/proposed by the parliament and then drawn up by the civil service and submitted for approval or amendment.

The EU parliament also doesn't quite work in the same way that the UK parliament does, because of PR and because the parties are drawn from across the continent.

Yet your simple attempts to point out a democratic deficit do nothing than show your ignorance of the topic. Which is demonstrated by your point regarding the Franco/German ideal.

[Dannythechampion]

It is complicated, you demonstrate that with your lack of understanding of how it works.

"This didn't work for you in the EU Referendum and it will not work for you in the General Election."

The election isn't just about Brexit though is it?

Oh and in the referndum what worked for leave was simple arguments that pandered to prejudices but were actually untrue. Big fat lies on the side of a bus, followed by promising every stakeholder group you could find that their interests would be at heart.

That and of course the thing all leavers like to deny, the anti immigration fires were stoked for months (years actually) by the press and leavers.

That's what won you the vote, bullshit and racism.

[Dannythechampion]

"The equivalent of the EU "civil service" actually wield the political power and the European parliament is nothing more than an "approving" body."

Sigh, but the parliament and council recommend ( in fact tell) the commission what type of legislation is drawn up. This is then worked on by civil servants from all of the different countries in order to come up with legislation which is in the interests of all countries in the EU. Then approved by the Council and Parliament or amended.

Its quite a fine process.

[optionalrationale]

Peregrina

"But tell me whether you voted in any European elections, even better if you have voted in all you were eligible to vote for"

I have voted in some when I could be bothered but then I stopped because I believe that this is the best way to register my opposition to the way the EU is set up.

BTW... If anyone here thinks they "voted for their candidate for MEP"... No you didn't. You voted for a party. The executive of the "winning" party (based on an overly complicated voting system) decided who your "representative" would be.

YOU are the employer of your MP in the UK parliament. If you write to your MEP and I say "We elected to you to represent us" , he /she will politely tell you "Oh no you fucking didn't".

[Dannythechampion]

"You voted for a party. The executive of the "winning" party (based on an overly complicated voting system) decided who your "representative" would be."

Which is what happens in the UK. Remind me about how many different seats the minister for the 1940s stood in before he got elected? Paul Nuttall was selected by the people of Stoke to stand for UKIP in their seat wasn't he?

"If you write to your MEP and I say "We elected to you to represent us" , he /she will politely tell you "Oh no you fucking didn't"."

Evidence of this please? I think you'll find they wouldn't say anything of the sort.

"I could be bothered but then I stopped because I believe that this is the best way to register my opposition to the way the EU is set up."

Much like the rest of your posts this is genius in its idiocy.