Were there any LD supporters who voted Leave?

[optionalrationale]

I am a "natural" Labour supporter and former party member. I supported Labour Leave in the EU Ref and will be voting Conservative for the first time in my life in the GE. I wondered if there were any LD Leavers. I know this might be rare but I wondered if there were any at all. Or is LD Leaver an impossible combination.

You are wasting your breath Danny. The media and the extreme right Tories have convinced people that the EU is totally wrong. We will eventually find that in fact, it had some faults but did a lot right for us. Once we have been totally screwed over by May's government. May who is still preaching about a country which works for everyone, despite being booed in a meeting today.

Meanwhile, your Farages and Co, and I expect May herself, will do a Cameron and clear off as fast as they can.

The biggest benefit of leaving will be to return power to the ordinary voters of the UK. I trust them far more than unelected, appointed bureaucrats in Brussels (and Strasbourg)

Fuck that - I don't! At least the civil servants in Brussels and Strasboug have a clue how politics and economies work. Unlike the ordinary voters who know very little...

Meanwhile, your Farages and Co, and I expect May herself, will do a Cameron and clear off as fast as they can

I agree. People talk about 'holding to account' how exactly? Politicians and those responsible will be able to walk away completely scott free.

At least the civil servants in Brussels and Strasboug have a clue how politics and economies work. Unlike the ordinary voters who know very little...

Interesting. I always thought politics was about what ordinary people think and want. Silly me.

" I always thought politics was about what ordinary people think en"

Hmm, no politicians present what they think will improve things for people and people choose their representatives based on that. Once actually representing politicians do what they think is best.

Often what ordinary people think is far from reality.

The most powerful positions in all governments are appointed.

I always thought politics was about what ordinary people think and want

It would be nice if this was true. But unfortunately it is about what rich and powerful people want and then use their media machines to convince ordinary people that they want to. The ordinary person (and I am one of them) has no idea what the wider implications of any of this stuff might be.

Often what ordinary people think is far from reality

Did I read you on this thread or another supporting the Labour Party Danny?

Are you a secret Tory agent?

No, but what ordinary people think is often far from reality.

There is some really good research out there which demonstrates this, its why parties put forward manifestos that they think people will like, but also that they think will make a difference. They don't ( well up until recently) just pander to base prejudices and misconceptions.

You don't like those plebs, do you Danny? And people wonder why the left/Labour are in such a mess

I didn't say that did I.

I said that actually that this phrase: "I always thought politics was about what ordinary people think and want" is actually incorrect because its not the way politics has worked up until recently. See campaigning on that you will be giving people what they want is populism, and up until recently we have had fairly serious middle ground politicians who were not populists.

But fine, take it down that route of not liking the pleb, fine, it seems to be a defence used by certain people when you point out that actually often there is a difference between what people "think and want" and the reality of situation.

You think Labour are so far behind because of that? Or do you think the media has effected it.

This election also isn't going to turn out how its being predicted either.

Look at the way the media was talking up UKIP - on QT most weeks, on political shows most weeks, and then suddenly, it became clear that they were losing support. Then the emphasis began to switch, quite rapidly. But if you were watching the by elections and Local elections you could see that the support for UKIP was beginning to wane.

Now, I think we just don't know. Some clues will come with the County Council elections. But people vote for differing issues. Locally, some to stop more housing until a road junction has been improved; other voters are saying XXX (the sitting County Councillor) is an idiot, you've got my vote.

"Yesterday 21:32 Oakmaiden

The biggest benefit of leaving will be to return power to the ordinary voters of the UK. I trust them far more than unelected, appointed bureaucrats in Brussels (and Strasbourg)

Fuck that - I don't! At least the civil servants in Brussels and Strasboug have a clue how politics and economies work. Unlike the ordinary voters who know very little"

See this is what I find most worrying and ironic. So often it is people on the "liberal" wing of politics who are the first to willingly give up their own democratic freedoms in the belief that the voters know very little.

Oakmaiden you have (once again) revealed the utter disdain and sneering condescension that EUphiles have for the people. The EU Commission was designed for exactly the reasons you give here.

In democracies based on the Westminster model, the people are in charge. In the Franco/German model an "appointed elite" is in charge,. DannytheMNChampionoftheEu wants you to believe they are civil servants. Bollocks, they are an appointed executive.

And Oakmaiden, "at least they have a clue how politics and economics work"

Yesterday 22:26 Dannythechampion
"Often what ordinary people think is far from reality"

Those nine words demonstrate the truth behind the way the EU is designed and operates.

Danny, three questions
1. Who gets to decide what "reality" is?
2. What happens if their version of "reality" is different from your own?
3. Who / what is the Minister for the 1940s you mentioned yesterday?

Yesterday 20:56 Peregrina
"The media and the extreme right Tories have convinced people that the EU is totally wrong."

Peregrina, my views of the workings of the EU were most heavily influenced by Tony Benn. He saw it first hand. Watch the link I posted yesterday. Here was a man who fought against tyranny in WW2 in order to protect democratic freedoms, and yet, there he was in Brussels / Strasbourg (elected by the people of his constituency) basically being told to shut up and accept what unelected euro officials were telling him.

Most people have bought into the story that Danny and Oakmaiden want you to accept
It's complicated
You don't understand
Leave it to people who understand reality not you

How can liberal minded people willingly buy into this?

I can't interpret what you are saying Danny, with your disdain for what "ordinary people" think, as anything but disdain for democracy.

I would be interested to know what political system you would prefer.

The reality of the EU (then EEC)
In his diary (25 October 1977) Benn wrote that he "loathed" the EEC; he claimed it was "bureaucratic and centralised" and "of course it is really dominated by Germany. All the Common Market countries except the UK have been occupied by Germany, and they have this mixed feeling of hatred and subservience towards the Germans".

I don't think we need to wait for the local elections to get a idea which way the General Election is going

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/22/opinium-observer-poll-conservatives-way-ahead-of-labour

I always thought politics was about what ordinary people think and want

Yes, but people, ordinary or not, want different things. Politics has to find a way of respecting the democratic vote whilst still allowing those who didn't win to feel they have some say and some influence over their lives. Precisely because we have a FPTP system it's important that politicians do respect that, otherwise its a case of a large number of people effectively being told to "suck it up" - in the phrase of another Mumsnetter poster. This pretty well happened during the Blair years when, rightly or wrongly, a lot of people did feel they were being ignored. The same is likely to happen in the coming Maytocracy.

In the absence of a PR system happening any time soon, there are sensible measures the government could take. What about returning education to some form of local control - not to the extent where LAs rather than schools appointed teachers but certainly on issues such as the return of selection. Or what about the govt supporting the proposal from Guy Verhofstadt to allow people to retain EU citizenship on a voluntary basis?

I used to be a supporter of FPTP but either I've always been wrong or circumstances have changed enough that I really think it is no longer viable. I am actually quite worried about the next few years. My daughter already sees her future abroad. Of course there is nothing wrong with young people broadening their horizons but this is becoming very widespread among them.

By the way, as a Librarian, I've frequently been told over the years that libraries should give "people what they want". Trouble is I've also been told that libraries are too noisy/too quiet/not welcoming to children/have too many noisy childrens activities/not enough books/too many books/try too hard to be trendy/not trendy enough/too many computers/not enough computers. It's not easy to give people what they want!

Nobody can credibly claim that an institution is not democratic if they failed to turn out to vote.

The other striking thing about views on the EU's unaccountability is the extremely narrow view it reflects of what 'democracy' means, and what forms of accountability exist - apart from simply giving your vote to an mp once every 5 (or occasionally 2!) years. The EU is not perfect - far from it, but nobody ever focuses, for example, on its social partnership model for the development of legislation -

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=329&langId=en

This is probably largely because business interests in the uk have been so antithetical to the EU in at least the past 10 years that they have effectively stymied effective social dialogue for uk workers.

Social partnership is a principle whereby laws are drawn up (not approved, but developed) through a process of consensus, with input from the social partners of each member state - trade unions, or union federations (in our case, the TUC) and employer associations (in our case, the CBI.

I think it may even be fairer to say that the EU goes too far in its efforts to be accountable - and reflective of the needs of other member states (producing unwieldy decision making) than the other way around.

And it also fails miserably in its efforts to explain itself (not helped in this country by an extraordinarily hostile press and - until very recently - a fairly hostile business community).

Today 08:16 Figmentofmyimagination
"Nobody can credibly claim that an institution is not democratic if they failed to turn out to vote"

Germany was a teency bit undemocratic from 1933-1945. Not many Jews turned out to vote.

You cannot expect to be taken seriously in an argument about accountability if you fail to turn out to vote when given that opportunity. I'm afraid resorting to arguments about the Jews in Germany rather suggests that in your heart of hearts, you know this!

Nice to see Godwins Law being invoked. There's a world of difference between being denied a vote and failing to vote.