Were there any LD supporters who voted Leave?

[optionalrationale]

I am a "natural" Labour supporter and former party member. I supported Labour Leave in the EU Ref and will be voting Conservative for the first time in my life in the GE. I wondered if there were any LD Leavers. I know this might be rare but I wondered if there were any at all. Or is LD Leaver an impossible combination.

And still no clear answer on why it is not worth staying in the EctHR.

.

Who decides what is "ignorance" and what is "knowledge"?

Taken to its extreme, natural selection does a pretty good job of this .

You should consider this question next time you step on a plane or have surgery, and see if you still feel the same way.

Mistigri
The irony of using a smart phone/computer to decry experts!
Accepting that not everyone's opinions have equal weight is not anti-egalitarian. The idea that all opinions are equal, and that expertise is inherently untrustworthy is anti-intellectualism. Which, incidentally, has been used over and over by both far right and far left totalitarian dictatorships to oppress political dissent.

I'm not really keeping up with the detail of this thread but just want to say that some pp are talking as if political decisions are all about facts and expert knowledge whereas any fule kno that they are just as much about values.

And I also want to say that I find it completely fascinating that the left (and this is the feeling I am getting from some pp on this thread, but do correct me if I have misinterpreted) which used to be a movement centred on empowering ordinary, dare I say, working class, people, now seems to be increasingly saying that actually these people shouldn't be empowered because, oh look, they make the wrong decisions (eg Brexit), they don't understand, they need to leave it to the establishment clever, expert people.

Which really makes me question what is the left then, if it doesn't believe in empowering ordinary people? It has all got very, very confusing.

WrongTrouser: If you got that impression, then I am not articulating myself very well. I went off on a bit of tangent following optional's comments about experts, ignorance and knowledge. I wasn't suggesting that political decisions should only be made by experts - but that they should be involved with the political process, and policy should be informed by evidence.
The best way to truly empower people, I believe, is with education and information, as well as with political power via voting. People should feel empowered to ask questions - not dismissed as traitors or sabatours (or, for that matter, as racists) when they disagree with the direction a leader is taking. Democracy is not limited to elections and referendums - "moving on" from a vote does not mean that we stop scrutinising how a leader/government interprets that vote.
Remainers and leavers should both feel free to hold the government to account for how they interpret the Leave vote. A HOC dominated by Conservative MPs with a very small opposition will make this more difficult.

One of the posters who comes into a lot of flak from Leavers on Brexit threads was by her own admission a comfortably off Tory voter. Being a Tory never used to meet anyone's definition of 'the Left'. I don't know whether any Labour voters have identified themselves on this particular thread. On other threads a lot of one time Labour voters posters are saying that they will vote Tory because they can't vote for Corbyn. Corbyn's policies looked quite Socialist to me, but what would I know?. So all very strange - people who used to be ordinary working people voting for a party with a Cabinet made up of extremely wealthy people, who will not give them a second thought if they get themselves re-elected.

...And many of the people who shout the most loudly against experts and evidence are very powerful members of the establishment themselves.
They have a vested interest in shutting down dissent.

Peregrina Today 08:45
"So, if May (or those pulling her strings) gets her (their) way, we crash out of the EU and how they conduct their business need no longer concern you."

I wouldn't use the language you use. But I do hope that we make a clean break from the EU.

I raise the founding principles, design and operation of the EU because this was overshadowed during the Referendum campaign by talk of immigrants and funding. I remain curious as to how liberalism can be reconciled with the anti egalitarianism which I see inherent in the EU.

Interestingly many Conservative Remainers I know were more willing to admit "We know the EU is pretty crap. If we weren't members already we wouldn't apply to join. But we're in it and it's going to be painful to get out"

From Remainers on the left, I saw more defensiveness when discussing the flaws in the design of the EU..."That's just admin detail."

If you're not interested in the conversation, you don't have to participate.

I'm sort of centre/slightly left of centre myself Peregrina. I voted Labour in the last GE, but do not have much loyalty to any political party. I certainly don't consider myself to be far left.

A simple question was asked, and answered. That's the end of it, as far as I am concerned.

I hope OR's new found enthusiasm for the Tory party delivers her the goodies she craves. I wouldn't bet on it myself.

optional: You still have not told me what it is about the ECHR which offends your liberal values so much.
Is it just because it has the word "European" in it?

Today 11:22 squishysquirmy
"Mistigri grin
The irony of using a smart phone/computer to decry experts"

Not quite the point.

I am not "decying" experts. I am asking how "experts" should play their very legitimate role in advising government but still be held accountable (by those directly elected by the people).

If you have total faith in totally objective, totally incorruptible, totally knowledgeable, totally benign "experts" you could see the appeal in that. Unfortunately Junkers and his EU Commission do not quite fit that mould.

"If you have total faith in totally objective, totally incorruptible, totally knowledgeable, totally benign "experts" you could see the appeal in that"

I said the opposite.

I am not "decying" experts. I am asking how "experts" should play their very legitimate role in advising government but still be held accountable (by those directly elected by the people).

You certainly give the impressing of decrying any expertise which goes against your prejudices. Nevertheless the point about accountability is an important one. Holding people accountable is done primarily at the ballot box - we hold politicians accountable if it turns out that they listened to the wrong people, or if they ignored expert advice and went ahead with policies anyway.

The problem here is that for this type of accountability to work, you need a press and an electorate that is prepared to hold politicians to account. A good and hopefully non-partisan example of this not happening is the coalition government's "troubled families" initiative - a Cameron policy - on which billions of pounds were spent despite expert opinion that it was barking up entirely the wrong tree.

A few months ago, research was publishing providing pretty compelling evidence that it was money down the drain - or rather, public money channeled unproductively into the pockets of some of Cameron's best pals.

One would hope to see the Tory party being held to account for this fiasco - but it never will be, because the UK press is mainly either run by neo-fascists or bludgeoned into silence by the government, and the electorate is almost terminally incurious.

Not elitist.

Peregrina
"A simple question was asked, and answered. That's the end of it, as far as I am concerned"

Got it. Peace and love to you, Peregrina. You're an inspiration.

To anyone reading this thread, I am encouraged that the answer to my closed question in the title is obviously "yes". Unfortunately, I am not able to change that..

If I could it, I guess the title would be ...
"Any other liberal minded, progressive, left of centre people out there who voted Leave? Wanna chat?"

Change the title I mean

Today 12:13 squishysquirmy
"optional: You still have not told me what it is about the ECHR which offends your liberal values so much.
Is it just because it has the word "European" in it?"

Yes.

WrongTrouser
"And I also want to say that I find it completely fascinating that the left (and this is the feeling I am getting from some pp on this thread, but do correct me if I have misinterpreted) which used to be a movement centred on empowering ordinary, dare I say, working class, people, now seems to be increasingly saying that actually these people shouldn't be empowered because, oh look, they make the wrong decisions (eg Brexit), they don't understand, they need to leave it to the establishment clever, expert people"

This 100%.

The Labour Party is haemorrhaging support from its base, because it has (apparently) bought into the premise that we (the experts, elite, cosmopolitan, educated elite) know more, know better, are better than you (the "ordinary people" who don't understand or buy into our version of - "reality" as wonderfully described by DannytheMNChampionoftheEU).

Ironically, their arguments sound spookily similar to the arguments made in the past by
Organised religion
The land owning gentry
Absolute monarchy

Time and time again, it's an attitude that foments revolutionary sentiments

There's only one thing wrong with your last argument, OP. The Labour Party does not seem to have bought into the premise that 'experts, elite, cosmopolitan, [insert other DM propaganda words here]' know more. They have provided no opposition whatsoever to Brexit, have voted for everything that TM has put in front of them, and have parroted the 'we must respect the vote/the people have spoken' line since 24th June 2016.

The fact that they're not doing their job of opposing government will have contributed hugely to their current lack of support.

How can you argue against "blind faith" in experts on the one hand, yet put all your "bind faith" in May delivering your Lexit, and on the Tories (and all future governments) protecting your Human Rights on the other?

I don't see anything championed by Gove, Mogg, Davies, Johnson, Redwood, Villiers etc as being particularly "liberal and progressive"! Nor do I see them leading a revolution that benefits anyone but themselves.

I might not be an expert on the ECHR, but at least I took the time to research it before making my mind up about it - I didn't instantly form an incredibly strong, unchangeable opinion based on the name alone. That is what is known as an opinion based on ignorance*, and it undermines all your arguments.

*Not saying leave voters are ignorant, many made a well informed decision.

"Which really makes me question what is the left then, if it doesn't believe in empowering ordinary people?"

It was not "ordinary people" that led Brexit. It was a small number of millionaires. And plenty of well-off people voted to leave. And when you weigh up a single vote on the EU on the one hand, and being made poorer/working rights being reduced/losing public services on the other, are you really going to call that empowerment?

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