Were there any LD supporters who voted Leave?

[optionalrationale]

I am a "natural" Labour supporter and former party member. I supported Labour Leave in the EU Ref and will be voting Conservative for the first time in my life in the GE. I wondered if there were any LD Leavers. I know this might be rare but I wondered if there were any at all. Or is LD Leaver an impossible combination.

"I said pasaiv3 resistance and nonviolent non cooperation are legitimate forms of protest in a free society."

(Whats your opinion on the ECHR? Not bothered about the protections offered?)

You can do whatever you like to register your protest in a free society. But staying in bed is not terribly effective.

Peregrina
I do agree with everything you said ìn your post of 10:58

Squishy
"You can do whatever you like to register your protest in a free society. But staying in bed is not terribly effective"
Agreed.

What's your opinion on the ECHR?
The supranational system of courts is overly cluttered and layered with two many courts whose power and jurisdictions need a tidy up.

It damages the credibility of a court like the ECHR when it imposed a $2B sanction on Russia and Russia metaphorically yawned and rolled over in bed in its pj's.

People end up saying "What is it for?"

too many

I don't think that the ability to control Russia should be the test by which we decide if an organisation is effective or not.....

People end up saying "What is it for?"

The following video is pretty good (and shorter than the ones you keep posting )
www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2016/apr/25/patrick-stewart-sketch-what-has-the-echr-ever-done-for-us-video

Squishy
It might not be. But it sets a heck of a precedent and tests the authority of the judicial power. If the recipient of the "justice" it dispenses is able to say shrug and say "Whatever"...then it runs the risk of being seen as irrelevant.

A very senior European diplomat once said to me (off the record) that "The reason why the EU is so unpopular in the UK, is because the Brits actually follow its rules / sanctions."

If you look at corruption rates across Europe, there a distinct national differences

Watched your video.

Right to:
Fair trial
Privacy
Freedom from torture
Freedom of religion
Freedom from slavery
Protecting victims of domestic violence
Freedom from discrimination*
Freedom from degrading treatment

We have all of the above already and did (and do) far more than our European neighbours to uphold them over the course of the 20th century.

I highlight the point about "Freedom from Discrimination". I have to travel across Europe most weeks. I would not want to be a black or Asian person living in France, Hungary, Romania or Bulgaria. Attitudes to race in some of those countries are way way worse than what is acceptable from decent/fair people in the UK.

Research from the European Commission itself
one-europe.net/eurographics/infographic-corruption-across-europe

Rest assured I will be voting in the GE to ensure that this indeed is the Brexit Election
That's the problem though. It's not a 'Brexit election'. It's a normal, general election and you will be voting for a party which is dismantling the NHS, cutting funding to schools, social care etc. and which is definitely no friend of women. You've really fallen for the rhetoric hook, line and sinker if you think this election is only about Brexit.
FWIW I really don't buy your 'ex-Labour activist' spiel at all on the basis of your willingness to knowingly vote for the most extreme right government we've seen in decades..

So what is to be accomplished by leaving the ECHR, if we go above and beyond its rulings anyway? Except to make it easier for some future government to erode those rights?

"Attitudes to race in some of those countries are way way worse than what is acceptable from decent/fair people in the UK."
.... yes, worse than what is acceptable to decent/fair people in the UK. There are plenty of racists still in Britain, though; many of them feel happy to share their abhorrent views, others use more subtle dog whistles. I am not going to argue that other countries don't have a worse problem with discrimination - many are much worse. But any examples of an increase in racism in the UK over the last year would just be dismissed by you anyway, wouldn't they?

www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-racism-hate-crime-figures-rise-white-british-being-attacked-a7360836.html

I am not, for one moment suggesting that all leave voters are racist, I know that most are appalled by any rise in racism or xenophobia. These attitudes have been simmering away under the surface for a while, waiting to be stirred up. I don't think Brexit caused racism, but certain politicians caused it to be more of an issue when they poked their shitty sticks into the hornets nest, just to win more votes.

Do not try to pretend that modern Britain is some sort of post-racism utopia.

Believe me, it is far worse in France and Hungary right now. Like stepping back in time to the 1950s

So that makes it fine to not bother with anti-discrimination protections here, does it? because its worse somewhere else?

Today 12:43 BrexshitMeansBrexshit
"FWIW I really don't buy your 'ex-Labour activist' spiel at all on the basis of your willingness to knowingly vote for the most extreme right government we've seen in decades"

It's worth a lot to me Brexshit. It's worth a lot.
Member for 25 years, activist and candidate. The PLP do not want JC as leader. Neither do I. The only way of getting rid of him as quickly as possible is to deliver a bad result for Labour in the GE. I will be voting Con for the first and hopefully only time.

Today 12:59 squishysquirmy
"So that makes it fine to not bother with anti-discrimination protections here, does it? because its worse somewhere else?"

Who has advocated that? As your video points out, it was British lawyers that wrote most of this stuff for the Europeans. We already had it and did a better job of protecting it throughout the 20th century. Nobody is advocating getting rid of these freedoms in the UK

Nobody is advocating getting rid of these freedoms in the UK

Theresa May has talked of exactly that - repealing the ECHR. We will gloss over the fact that it is Council of Europe legislation and not to do with the EU.

Cameron talked of repealing the Human Rights Act, although despite promising to do it within 100 days of being elected, he never got round to it.

Things change, optional.
Governments change, and suddenly the protections you thought were set in stone are brushed aside like cobwebs.
I just don't see any downside to the ECHR big enough to justify leaving it:
Membership gives us extra protection against those who would reduce our rights, and we lend our support to human rights in other countries. Win-Win!
Who gains from us leaving it?

The ECHR is separate from the EU, so I don't understand why we have to leave. Leaving may also make future security co-operation more difficult between us and other EU countries, which is dangerous for them and for us.

Today 13:35 Peregrina
"Nobody is advocating getting rid of these freedoms in the UK.Theresa May has talked of exactly that - repealing the ECHR. We will gloss over the fact that it is Council of Europe legislation and not to do with the EU."

See this is where Remainers fall into the hole they dug for themselves with Project Fear. Removing a duplicative set of laws and judicial powers does not meam TM wants to reintroduce slavery. We already hae all of these rights and freedom and a lot better of protecting them than most of European friends

"Governments change, and suddenly the protections you thought were set in stone are brushed aside like cobwebs"

They do indeed. But as your video link points out, we have had a lot of these rigthts forming the foundation of our legal system dating back to Magna Carter. As history has shown, our neighbours on continental Europe (Germany, France, Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria, Spain I could go on ) have a far worse track record of fulfilling youe fears (human rights being brushed aside like cobwebs) than the UK.

"But as your video link points out, we have had a lot of these rigthts forming the foundation of our legal system dating back to Magna Carter."

No, that is not what the video points out. At all.
The Magna Carter does not enshrine what we consider to be our Human Rights today.
How is leaving the ECHR going to improve human rights abroad?
How is leaving the ECHR going to improve our human rights in the UK?
I have briefly highlighted the negatives of leaving the ECHR, so What is the point in leaving? You still haven't told us that.

I do want to go back to a point we touched on earlier and I would particularly like to hear from LD supporters. How do you reconcile the values of liberalism with the anti-elagitarian views expressed by so much of the Remain campaign and the foundational design of the EU?
I guess I am still rather aghast but pleased that Danny owned up to this

Yesterday 23:06 Dannythechampion "What ordinary people think is often far from reality"

He never came back to answer the questions

1. Who are the "ordinary" people?
2. Who are the "not ordinary" or "extraordinary" people?
3. Who gets to decide who is "ordinary" and who is "extraordinary"?
4. Who decides what "reality" is?
5. How do they (the extraordinary people) decide what "reality" is/is not?

For me this is really interesting. It tells me that the Remain camp have a deeply anti egalitarianist mind set. It probably explains why they so often resort to "You disagree with us, therefore you must be stupid" tactic.

Or

"Your opinion is different to mine therefore I am better than you"

It comes across a highly elitist but with a left wing / progressive / cosmopolitan veneer

Squishy
"What is the point in leaving ECHR?"
It's duplicative.

I have no idea what Dannythechampion meant by "ordinary people", but I often use the term to distinguish between experts (on a particular subject) and everyone else.
So my understanding of how an MRI machine works, or the calculations that make my Sat-Nav possible, or the intricacies of a very difficult legal judgement, is that of an "ordinary person".
Some most things in this world are very complicated. Admitting that it is difficult for everyone to fully understand the complexities of something is not elitist, or undemocratic.

And your thoughts on what "the remain camp" think tells me that remainer's are not the only ones capable of sweeping, negative generalisations.

I like Isaac Asimov's quote:
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”