Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

And frankly Op, you sound like you are on glue.

U ok hun?

"You have far more power and opportunity to remove May than I have to remove Junkers or Tusk"

Well Tusk was voted for by the leaders of the countries in the EU. By voting for the Cons to have the largest majority, of which May was declared leader recently, the UK's vote was to reappoint Tusk. Poland's leader was the only one to object.

Junker was supported by 26 to 28 of the EU gov't's leaders. Only the UK and Hungary were agin him. He was approved by a majority in the European Parliament. The UK votes for members of the European Parliament, so their voice was heard there, too.

uk.businessinsider.com/eu-leaders-voted-to-reappoint-donald-tusk-president-of-the-european-council-2017-3?r=US&IR=T

I didn't vote for a Conservative or for May. Yet she is the leader of the gov't. A gov't which I didn't vote for. Maybe if more people did not vote Conservative last time, Tusk wouldn't have been given the UK vote as President of the European Council. Your voice was given to the Con's to represent you in voting him in.

Garbled, but it is late.

WhatwouldRonDo

"The French did what any country faced with a well equipped army marching over its borders would have done"

Ah yes, declare Paris an "open city" and not fire a shot to defend their own capital (June 1940), then have the Germans dominate them for four years.

The only reason why the Germans did march into our borders was because of a little incident called the "Battle of Britain".

"We were of course not short of collaborators who would have welcomed the Nazis, quite a few of the aristocracy, even the odd Royal they could have put as a puppet on the throne in the manner of Pu Yi"

How many of Frenh collaborated? How many of the French aided and abetted the transport of Jews to the death camps? If the French are such heroes and role-models for you, do you wish we had done the same?

The utter ignorance being spouted here about the war, britains role and experience in that war, (not to mention Britain the aggressor who clearly started the war) Churchill, grammar schools, France, Poland, etc etc etc is really quite amazing. Add to those ignorant views, a large chunk of chip on shoulder, and we have the views posted here. Lurking remainers, I dont take the bitter, ignorant, views expressed here as representative of the large majority of you.

The ignorant stuff about TM, has simply sent her popularity rating through the roof imo. Go TM! Youre clearly rattling the right cages!

Cailleach - absolutely so. I had already pointed out (I think on another thread) about Juncker - who Cameron voted against), in answer to this same point. This was met by silence. Your point about not voting for the Conservatives or May echoed my feelings exactly - but expressed so much better.

Peregrina
"We had declared war on Germany, after they invaded Poland. My question to my mother was, did that mean we started the war?"

The Germans invaded Czechoslovakia in March 1939 and Poland in September 1939 (despite months of appeasement negotiations trying to accommodate Germany's ever growing demands and numerous last ditch peace envoys). Britain and France declared war on Germany on 3rd September after having given Germany many appeals to withdraw from Poland.

But you wonder if Great Britain started WW2?

Give over, as they say in Yorkshire, Carolinesbeanies. Talk about taking stuff out of context and making it say what you want it to say, to fit your own agenda. So a child asks about who started the War, having heard a programme which had the statement that Britain declared war on Germany. From this you try to make out that someone has said that Britain was the Aggressor.

Some of us actually have lived through much of the time which has now made it into the history books, and we know that the reasons for events are complex.

But you wonder if Great Britain started WW2?

I did as a ten year old, certainly, as you would have seen if you actually ready what I said up thread. I have lived a good many years since then. Did you not begin to take an interest in current or world affairs at that age, and begin to ask questions? Perhaps not.

Badders
Your words
"Yes, some cities were targeted (Coventry and London for example) but most cities towns and villages had roads, railway lines, running water and electricity after the end of the war."

Britain had 420,000 military personnel killed in WW2 (I am not including the numbers from India, Canada, Australia, New Zealand in this figure).

France had 245,000 military killed. But clearly we didn't suffer nearly as much as your beloved France.

WhatWouldRonDo
"Optionale So we have a new bit of derogatory rhetoric, well done. Another right wing tactic, label then other."

Right wing?
I was a Reluctant Remainer and a member of the Labour Party for 25 years. YOUR Remain campaign convinced me that very close friends and principled colleagues in Labour Leave were absolutely right. Believe me, it is not easy having to be on the same side as Farridge and his ilk. My doubts about the EU experiment have been growing since listening to the Tony Benn diaries. His audio recordings from actual days he first went to Brussels in the late 1970s and saw first hand the unvarnished reality and inner workings of what is today called the EU. How he, as democratically elected British politician was powerless in the face of unelected European bureaucrats.

The attitudes and comments shared by the RNMW (particularly about TM being thick, Great Britain having started WW2, the utter disdain for low paid and unskilled workers in the UK being completely undercut for wages etc etc), makes me ashamed to think I ever considered supporting you.

OP was being obnoxious on another thread (about an overweight child) and was rightly called out on it. I would guess he/she enjoys riling people up.

I am pretty confident nobody said Great Britain started the war, what a lot of nonsense.

I am in danger of flogging this point to death. I, as a 10 year old or so, had seen or heard a programme which said that Britain declare war on Germany. Not understanding the background, I still think that is a valid assumption for a ten year old to make. From this the arch Leave brigade, are trying to infer that Remain voters think that Britain started the War. But it is a valid question as to whether we could have tackled Hitler differently. Or indeed, whether we should have rearmed earlier and taken action sooner. But they don't come back with answers like
this.

Instead they prefer to laud Theresa May to the skies, which is up to them but I won't be joining in the love fest, and one poster is intent on criticising the French.

Motheroffour
Here are Peregrina's actual words
"We had declared war on Germany, after they invaded Poland. My question to my mother was, did that mean we started the war?"

Even if she "wondered" this as a child, the fact that she then chose to declare this speculation again in 2017 is very enlightening about the way the RNMW camp views the history of Europe and what got us here.

Well spotted Grace. Is OP Katie Hopkins?

Totally agree mother - but the taking things out of context and adding 2+2 to equal a ridiculous number seems to be the norm these days. Of all the many irritating lines of rhetoric used I think the "you hate your country you treacherous big lover of European countries as opposed to Britain" accusation is one of the most tiresome.

I totally agree with the theory about not being occupied (and yes I know about the Channel Islands) making a difference in how we view the EU. My FIL's DF was a bigwig in Mussolini's army. My FIL lived with the consequences and remembers the war, the German presence, the divisions throughout the country and (as well as being a complete pacifist) is also very pro the EU. This is despite having inherited nationalistic and a lot of right wing views and tendencies from his DF (makes for interesting conversations with my lefty DH).

Peregrina
You are a gift that keeps giving

"But it is a valid question as to whether we could have tackled Hitler differently. Or indeed, whether we should have rearmed earlier and taken action sooner. But they don't come back with answers like
this."

Yes indeed. It is a very valid question if you happen to have a DeLorean and flux fuckin capacitor.

Even if she "wondered" this as a child, the fact that she then chose to declare this speculation again in 2017 is very enlightening about the way the RNMW camp views the history of Europe and what got us here.

No, it shows a child who was interested in current affairs, and Leavers who twist, twist, twist to make words fit their agenda.

Peregrina, I think we can all see what this thread is about, which is why it has been abandoned by the moderate 'leavers'. I have enjoyed reading much of the discussion but I think it is now time to put the thread to bed and ignore the blatant goading. We all know what you meant - including the OP. No need to explain further in my view.

Cupoftea. Too true! We need this cartoon.

I think the poor OP must be disappointed not to have caught tonnes of 'RNMW' extremists with her fishing expedition. Seems we're quite a reasonable bunch so twist, twist is their only option. Also seem that Leave No Matter What is a far more real position.

😂

😂

It's quite interesting how these "I voted remain but..." types are emerging just now. Perhaps for some the evidence of harm from Brexit is starting to make it a lot more uncomfortable to admit actually voting leave, even while they keep on fighting the leave battle. We'll see.