Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

TM may has promised Brexit means Brexit. She has promised that all trading relationships remain unaffected until a new legal agreement is reached with the EU. She has promised that the status of all EU citizens within the UK and the status of all UK nationals outside the UK, will remain until a new legal agreement is rached with the EU. She has promised FOM continues, until a new legal agreement is reached with the EU.

Those are TMs promises. TM has never promised something that would be for the EU to deliver.

Sounds like she is promising that the status quo will continue for another 7-10 years, which is excellent news. We can all get behind that, I think!

Those are TMs promises. TM has never promised something that would be for the EU to deliver.

I am not a betting person, but if I were, I wouldn't mind betting that this is not what a lot of Leavers thought they were voting for.

TM may has promised Brexit means Brexit

Well, thank goodness she's able to make such clear, meaningful promises. I feel completely reassured.

I think she has quietly dropped the agreement in two years stuff too. Which is just as well seeing as it's taken them almost ten months to achieve nothing much.

But she is not in a position to deliver on any of those promises. That is up to the EU27.

All of the things you mention Caroline are partially down to the EU to deliver.

But she is not in a position to deliver on any of those promises. That is up to the EU27.

A skillful negotiator could probably make a lot of headway with the other EU countries. Having seen May's performance at PMQs I am firmly of the opinion that she is most certainly NOT skilled in that area.

Yep user, and in further irony, it is for those who currently wish to be heard, to lobby their MEP. The likes of Nigel Farage.

Personally, I would support an action being taken to the EU courts. I wouldnt view it as 'frustrating' the process at all. I think all member states across europe need absolute clarity, (any clarity would do), and it would be the greatest court action known in the history of the world. The status of citizens in 28 European nations to be decided, quite correctly at the EU courts.

My gripe, is that this should have been thrashed out at Maastricht, not, to quote nearly all the EU leaders at that time, "we'll thrash out the detail later. Maastrict must be signed!" sic.

As was quite correctly warned at that time, the "detail" was never thrashed out. They signed it and went to lunch.

The UK government in the meantime, can and will continue governance in the areas they are able to govern. Europe isnt one of them.

Time for a re-posting of David Runciman's illuminating article on Theresa May -

www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n06/david-runciman/do-your-homework

Why do I like TM? Because she isnt filling your heads, with promises she is unable to deliver

Like when she tells people to "GO HOME" that means children too, even if they are home already?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/13/european-couple-stunned-as-uk-born-children-denied-residency.

^UK denies residency to London-born children of Dutch-Spanish couple
Children of couple who have lived in UK for decades told to prove they live permanently with parents^

On forming a "remain" party, a violent, irascible, racist, sexist, alt right and authoritarian fire has been lit in the heart of Britain, and until it's sated itself no 'remain' or anti racist or internationalist party stands a chance.

I don't include leave posters here in the above, I can see you have a more considered approach to Brexit.

To be honest, who would want to live here, or form an trade or political alliance with a country that treats children like this.

I was just about to post that link!

I'm stunned. British-born children, of parents who have been settled in the UK for three decades or more, being refused ILR? It's kafka-esque.

Such a contrast with our experience in supposedly-bureaucratic France. We are in a very similar position to the Spanish couple whose teens were refused ILR: British couple working in France for two decades, kids born locally. We recently completed the administrative procedures necessary to ensure that our children will have the right to remain in France after 2019. This involved completing a one page form, providing a short list of documents (birth certificates, passports and evidence of school registration for the last 5 years) and having a short meeting with a court official. A week later, my children were French citizens. The bureaucrats that dealt with us were professional, competent and compassionate.

So here's my wish: that EU citizens in the UK receive as much courtesy and consideration from the home office as we did from the French equivalent. It's not much to ask.

Brexit could be handled with intelligence and diplomacy. May is keen on clothes, but I don't think she's got the emotional or intellectual hinter land to survive this for long. Unfortunately she'll take the country down with her.

Power at any cost means one thing in political terms, sadly. And you have to be a really clever bastard to succeed at that. In May's defence, I don't think she's got the ability or skill to succeed on those terms.

"May is keen on clothes " . Don't like her, voted Remain but, please, she is PM ffs. What do her clothes matter?

YouJust an observation. it's semiotically important to certain target electorate.

That link about the Spanish-Dutch family makes me weep with frustration. What sort of country have we become?

Yes lala. Children in school. Teenagers, 12 and 15. What does that do to a child? Unbelievable.

I am aghast at all the derogatory comments about TM's smarts. A grammar school / comp girl who got into Oxford on merit and worked in the City for 20 years before carving out a political career with one of the longest ever stints at the Home Office before staging a highly successful Tory leadership coup having backed the losing side in a Referendum is anything but stupid or lacking in political acumen.

Compare and contrast with DC silver spoon in the mouth career politician.

She went to independent schools for Primary and got into the grammar.

She wasn't succesful at the home office at all, her attempts to bring down non-EU immigration failed drastically and she has alienated lots of those countries that we now seek to do deals with.

She got the leadership through opportunism, she didn't really back the remain side and kept well out of the campaign for the most part. She was presented the opportunity for the leadership when Gove knifed Boris, and after all we know Boris didn't really want a leave win, so Boris stood down. If he'd have stood May wouldn't have even had a look in.

She's hardly a success story, more an opportunist.

Agree on DC though.

But opportunism is surely just another name for politics, negotiation and deal making especially in a European context.

anything but stupid or lacking in political acumen

When she comes out with rubbish like brexit means brexit, red, white and blue brexit, citizens of nowhere etc, I feel embarrassed for her (and for all of us).

Being the last person standing after a Tory catfight is not a sign of greatness.

And yes, she failed at the Home Office - and to the extent that she said anything of note during the referendum campaign, her big idea (which rather speaks for itself) is that we should abandon the European Convention on Human Rights - leading to Patrick Stewart's classic put down sketch - perfect watching for a Thursday before bank holiday - "What has the ECHR ever done for us".

www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2016/apr/25/patrick-stewart-sketch-what-has-the-echr-ever-done-for-us-video

According to the Independent, May intends to make ceasing to be a signatory to the Convention a main plank of her 2020 election campaign.

Stupid? A lot of people will think so if she carries on like this.

I think May is reasonably politically adept - she has her limitations but they are at least partly due to the situation she finds herself in (party deeply divided between the partly-sane business lobby and the frequently-deranged blukip lobby). She is also plainly not stupid. But at the same time, she is a rigid thinker and surrounds herself with yes-men. This is not an attractive quality - and leavers should worry that this threatens brexit, which to be successful will require considerable creativity and the ability to think on one's feet. May has many qualities but these are not among them.

I think it's fine to criticise individual clothing items as being tone deaf (the shiny shit coloured trousers) but not her dress sense in general (which I think is not bad by any reasonable standard - not that it matters.)

"A grammar school / comp girl who got into Oxford on merit"

Theresa May got a 2.2 at Oxford, while David Cameron got a first. I don't think she's very smart.

It's 'street fighting nous' that's needed now, and I don't think she's got that. Intellectual and emotional hinterland is what I think she lacks, I'm not a tory, but there are plenty on her side who've spotted that one. On clothes, from Elizabeth 1st to Michelle Obama, significant women signal by their clothes. She does the same and to her core vote. I wouldn't have thought pointing out that she likes clothes is controversial.

What she's just said about the chemical attack in Syria is, however.