Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

it now has parliamentary approval & backing

What had parliamentary approval and backing? There are no clear plans of what this hard Brexit is.

With death threats to remainer MPs on both sides, how could there be a free vote on Brexit?

With the press accusing judges of being 'traitors' and Jo Cox's assassin accusing her of the same, how could there be a free vote on Brexit?

spiteful or reactionary
'Go Home' posters while in the home office? Forced deportations? Deportation centres. 'Notice to leave' letters to SAHMs?

she will be free to propose & implement her vision
That's not democracy, the separation of powers is breaking down and the executive is assuming unprecedented control. Where was the Henry VIII powers in any tory manifesto?

Who do you think paid for Brexit copperrose? Why are they fighting so hard for a hard Brexit?

If the electoral commission's findings have no effect, the richest will control elections.

However if she's so sure of her mandate, she should call an election.

Most Tory voters are not single issue on EU and so won't defect).

Except in Richmond Park?

And Sunderland. (UKIP to lib dem)

Most Tory voters are not single issue on EU and so won't defect)

Add in 19,000 lost Tory votes in the Witney by election. Whether that was defection or staying at home is a good question, but it was probably a mixture of both.

Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough, Teresa. Timpower with his mullet is ready for you.

The 48% is also running a tactical voting campaign for next month's local elections.

They (the 'remain coalition' should be targeting young people right now - making sure they are on the electoral register, visiting schools and universities, teaching them why they should vote etc. The uni fees issue was bad bad bad - but we have a new generation now, who have always paid fees, and who will know that they will lose the most from a hard brexit.

They should also be going after big corporate sponsors in the sectors most likely to suffer. Labour funding will be way down in the 2020GE, thanks to the outrageously one-sided attack on labour funding in the trade union act - but there is no law against the huge corporate and individual donations that bankroll the Tories, so a pro-EU coalition needs to be seeking the equivalent of these out, it seems to me. Maybe even tony Blair will give a bit - who knows!

Woman,

'A democracy represents the view of the minority as well as the majority'

Umm no, as most 'hard' remainers kept reminding us, in a representative democracy, elected MPs do what they consider to be in the best interests of their constituents.

You cannot have it both ways. If parliament hard Brexits, clearly this represents what they consider to be in the best interests of their constituents (if not, they have other options, resign the whip, resign as an MP etc).

If there is a will to remain still a political party should be formed on that issue and they should seek election on that manifesto (a bit like ukip in reverse).

If they are elected (and an election is not that far away) Brexit could easily be reversed.

They (the 'remain coalition' should be targeting young people right now - making sure they are on the electoral register, visiting schools and universities, teaching them why they should vote etc. The uni fees issue was bad bad bad - but we have a new generation now, who have always paid fees, and who will know that they will lose the most from a hard brexit.

Good post. The above is especially true given that there is a reasonable argument that voter suppression (of young people and Britons abroad) won the referendum.

They should also be going after big corporate sponsors in the sectors most likely to suffer.

Also some potential mileage here. I am hearing that the govt does not accept input from businesses unless they toe the line on brexit - this would explain why big employers with a lot to lose (and my employer has a lot to lose) have been so shy about speaking up.

If parliament hard Brexits, clearly this represents what they consider to be in the best interests of their constituents (if not, they have other options, resign the whip, resign as an MP etc).

I wish I could agree with you, but in the case of my own MP, I think she is more interested in climbing the greasy pole of office. She says she voted Remain, in what was a Remain constituency. I have asked her to tell me why she changed her mind. She has failed to do so. Hence my forming the opinion that currying favour with the latest PM is her game. At public meetings she has been asked to attend she doesn't show up, but it has been noted how she likes to show up for photo opportunities. She was seen out canvassing for a rather worried looking time serving local candidate. It was good to see the pair of them getting off their backsides for once. So no, Nicola Blackwood represents what she thinks is good for Nicola Blackwood.

jassy Richmond Park was Lib/Dem prior to Zac, who was never considered to be a proper Tory - until he ran for mayor and ended up making everyone hate him.

Difficult to read much into local council by-elections esp when the Westminster by-elections, with the exception of Richmond, have been showing a different story.

Peregrina,

It seems to me that you and many others on here have time, knowledge and means. You could easily get together and do a reverse Farage.

It would be (genuinely) interesting to see a pro eu party formed and see if they gained the same traction as Farage.

There is clearly a disconnect between polling which shows May hugely ahead, and by-election and council election results which have been altogether less glorious. Hard to know what this would mean for a GE. I expect this is one reason why May has not called a GE; she is naturally quite risk averse.

The only consistent story the Parliamentary by elections have shown is that UKIP is on the wane. In Sleaford they only managed a poor second. That is where they should have made a breakthrough, at least polling a good second like the Lib Dems in Witney.

It is no longer helpful or productive to frame Brexit in terms of 'the 48%' or Leavers & Remainers.

Not all of the 48% actually want to Remain No Matter What - an increasing amount have accepted that we will leave the EU, but want the softest possible Brexit.

Similarly, not all of the 52% want double hard Brexit - some would be perfectly ok with a softer Brexit (so long as Brexit happens).

If people keep pushing for established parties such as the Lib Dems to wholly represent Remain No Matter What and to overturn Brexit, they're onto a loser - and also risk alienating their not so entrenched voters.
A 'Remain Coalition' of established parties also has little mileage - a 'Soft Brexit' coalition could have much more support.

Let Tony Blair/Nick Clegg/Whoever form an entirely new Remain party, but it's daft and counterproductive to force an entire established Party to become little more than a single issue party.

XPosted with Larry.
YY to this:

It would be (genuinely) interesting to see a pro eu party formed and see if they gained the same traction as Farage.

The problem is that the soft brexit boat has probably sailed, and we're not on it. I think the only realistic outcomes at this point are remain-in-all-but-name or hard brexit.

"However if she's so sure of her mandate, she should call an election."

As Peregrina rightly points out, since 2011 we now have a fixed term parliament. However, I would argue, that TM does indeed have a mandate. She has a mandate given to her by MPs, using our representative democracy, voting her in. If the argument is that TM wasnt elected by the people in a direct general election vote (referendum?) then you have to disregard the whole representative democracy argument we continually churn over here. I agree with rep dem. I simply disagree that our parliament was representative of the nation, on the question of the EU at the time of the referendum, and the outcome bore that out.

If you look at the flip side, JC is still in office as Labour Leader, on his 'mandate' directly from party members. Yet 2/3rds of Labour MPs voted him out. In JCs case, representative democracy, has had no impact whatsoever on leadership. JC is in situ on a direct mandate from party members, TM is in situ on a mandate from representative MPs. Apart from the obvious flip flopping of the argument, its not surprising the public are a tad confused.

I like TM. I do believe she has a constitutional mandate as per our representative democracy. I think its right for the countr, not to cause further upheaval and discontent by pushing for an early GE, and 2020, is about right in my book.

Can you imagine a GE, with candidates standing on the promises of soft brexit, hard brexit, no brexit, etc etc etc? All promises, that are not within their power to deliver. A plan is not possible, just as it wasnt possible pre-referendum, because of the direct agreement needed from the EU, for any such plan. The plan can only come together with EU agreement.

Its an appalling state of affairs, its the biggest complaint from the remain voters, yet the irony that our very membership of the EU has caused this total self governance impotence, is lost on them.

Why do I like TM? Because she isnt filling your heads, with promises she is unable to deliver.

Why do I like TM? Because she isnt filling your heads, with promises she is unable to deliver.

YY.

Why do I like TM? Because she isnt filling your heads, with promises she is unable to deliver.

I can understand why people like TM, but she has made a lot of promises she will be absolutely unable to deliver, especially on freedom of movement and access to the single market. She's already rowing back on promises about a FTA by 2019, and the end of FOM.

I personally don't think that TM has a mandate - as far as I am concerned Cameron's mandate stands. The criticism levelled at May has been levelled at other PMs who took over without going to the Country, without pointing out that the rules are now different, so I think it's a little unfair.

As for making promises which she can't deliver, so far she has only delivered soundbites - Brexit means Brexit and she intends to make a success of it. What will be seen as success? No one knows, so they won't know whether she has delivered or not. FoM looks likely to stay in the short term. That won't please her hard right. Will they regard that as a success?

As for the point about creating a pro EU party as Farage created UKIP - don't forget that Farage hasn't been able to get himself elected. The only two MPs UKIP did have defected from the Tories although Carswell then subsequently won his own election (and has now defected again!) Add to that, a right wing press constantly running the EU down, (when they are not taking swipes at immigrants, not necessarily EU immigrants). So although there has been talk, I don't think the idea has much traction. I think we have to try to work with the system we have.

Cross posted.