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Brexit

Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

999 replies

optionalrationale · 08/04/2017 07:48

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

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Carolinesbeanies · 12/04/2017 23:09

"You have more opportunity and power to make this happen than I have to get rid of Junkers"

  • 1

(You dont see +1 any more, just had that random thought)

Dannythechampion · 12/04/2017 23:31

The peace within Europe point is not ridiculous at all, your attempts to dismiss it are.

No one said it was ONLY the EU that helped bring peace to Europe, only that it did help bring peace. Yet off you go again with your ridiculous Boris like tangent and racial stereotyping

Project Fear seems a lot more like project reality these days.

Funny how more of Project fear is looking to be true than the promises made by the leave campaign.

Immigration isn't going to fall.
No 350 million
We'll still pay in
Have less say in regulations for our largest export market that our firms will still have to abide by.
We already made our own laws ( or have you forgotten what the white paper said)
Fishing rights are set to be used as a negotiating chip, there will be no great fishing revival.

"dont agree that the vast majority, havent a clue about the EU. The vast majority do. The vast majority have been living in a member state of the EU for over 20 years. Living in one. What other qualifications would you like to have seen to therefore make their view legitimate to you?"

Well lets discuss this.

Many people conflate the EU with the ECHR , they are not the same.
Many people, yourself included, blame the EU and immigration for low wages, when its been categorically proven that it has an extremely low effect on the low paid .
Many people in the UK when asked about voting leave made statements regarding inequality and people in London not listening to them.
People blame immigration for the impact of austerity.
People blame the EU for the decline in manufacturing industries and heavy industrty.

People have been massively misinformed by the media about the EU, and by SOME politicians who have blamed the EU for things when it was actually national government decisions.

So no, I don't think the people knew enough about it, the electoral commission report prior to the referendum showed the same thing.

Deadsouls · 12/04/2017 23:35

It would be good to be kept in the loop. And a referendum on the terms of the deal(s). Would that be very unreasonable? Would give people the chance to know Brexit really means. I know that won't happen though

optionalrationale · 12/04/2017 23:35

Stumblymonkey
Your words "What I think makes no difference now. Brexit won't fail because a MN poster said they'd prefer to RNMW. I have zero influence over the negotiations whatsoever."

Thanks for that.

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optionalrationale · 12/04/2017 23:44

Danny
Your words

"Project Fear seems a lot more like project reality these days.

Funny how more of Project fear is looking to be true than the promises made by the leave campaign."

Clearly what you should do now is turn it up several notches to Project Terror. Where Project Fear failed so badly, Project Terror, will clearly bring about the change you want..

You know what, you're right...Thank you. Thank you for helping me to poo my pants with fear

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Dannythechampion · 12/04/2017 23:52

Lots of hot air, yet no facts.

optionalrationale · 12/04/2017 23:53

Project Poopy Pants will ensure we RNMW*

  • Remain No Matter What
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Dannythechampion · 12/04/2017 23:55

Yet more nonfactual hyperbole.

optionalrationale · 12/04/2017 23:58

The best "fact" in this whole thread is the "fact" (you supplied) that without the EU (not NATO), France woulda gone to war with Germany.

Keep em coming

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Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 00:00

No I said that having increased levels of economic cooperation prevents war, and that this was one of the very purposes of the origins of the EU.

You twisted that, for your own purposes, because you can't actually argue against that fact.

The funniest thing on this thread so far has been you and your utter inability to actual rebut anything.

optionalrationale · 13/04/2017 00:11

Increased levels of economic cooperation I wholeheartedly agree with (like the ASEAN model,

Bureaucratic, corrupt, inefficient, inconsistent, woefully slow federal super state designed to protect French agriculture and German industry.. not so much

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Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 00:20

Yet we seem to have done quite well from it, seeing as 46% of our exports go there.

The rest of your post again, hyperbole and counterfactual.

Corrupt? More corrupt than any of the nation states? Evidence for that allegation?

Bureaucratic? The commission employs the same number of people as Derbyshire County Council, the UK civil service is far more bureaucratic.

If it was designed to protect only those two countries why are so many others keen to join, and more than France and Germany keen to be net contributors?

Why were the majority of our MPs in favour of remaining?

Carolinesbeanies · 13/04/2017 00:32

Mother, (sorry, finally come back) you are simply delegitimising the vote.

It isnt enough to say the electorate arent qualified. Why? Because its stating they arent qualified to decide how and by whom they are governed. It undermines all western democratic values. We do not, and should not, have some form of elitist democracy, whether thats academic, social, professional, etc etc.

No one questions the right of the electorate to decide who governs, yet the role of government is a hugely complex, hugely far reaching entity in itself. Being tested on say the National Employment Savings Trust (Amendment) Order 2015 , in order to qualify for a right to vote, would bring our democracy as we know it, to its knees.

Those that are trusting their MP to ensure they seek 'expert' advice, or assume their MP has made themselves aware of all facts, prior to acting on our behalf, need only look at the parliament voting and attendance records, or the time given to say a bill presentation, to see that isnt the case.

Take the Lisbon Treaty for example. The actual treaty was only deposited in the Commons on the 17th December. Parliament had broken up for christmas recess, the day before. The first day back in parliament was the 7th of Jan, and their first vote? It was to ratify the Treaty. Many many MPs complained that indeed theyd only received it at 11:45 that morning, but most, just werent bothered. Had many MPs read it? Had any MPs even read it? If you ask that question, they will mutter that various parts had been discussed and debated etc and they were fully au-fait with its content. But they werent. They hadnt read it. Theyd taken on trust what Gordon Brown and the government had told them at the time.

The issue it appears, is that indeed, we dont expect our MPs to sit hour after hour, going line by line through legislation. We dont expect it,we dont demand it, and we certainly dont make it a legal obligation that they do. We dont even make it a legal obligation that they vote at all.

Your MP, can sit in Parliament representing you, and not actually vote on anything for his/her entire tenure. Nick Cleggs record on voting is shocking. Last count, was around 14%. Thats 86% of votes he didnt represent his constituents view on.

Then theres constituency representation. Stuart Bell for example, MP for Middlesborough, didnt hold a constituency surgery for 15 years. And it goes on and on and on.

To assume some wonderful representative institution is at work here, disregards all the evidence that says otherwise, and as weve seen by the referendum, representative on the EU question, its not.

Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 00:39

"It isnt enough to say the electorate arent qualified"

The electoral commission thought that the UK electorate, and it was confirmed by those questioned themselves, were not informed enough regarding the complexity of the issues, in order to make an informed choice on the EU referendum.

Your point regarding the Lisbon Treaty was poor, the Treaty was available to view online, and what was in it was common knowledge as it had wide press coverage because it had been sent back for alterations and addendums following the first Irish referendum. MP's would have known what vote was scheduled in the commons on the first day back.

Yet again, British politicians blaming something else for their own inadequacies.

optionalrationale · 13/04/2017 00:55

Danny

"the UK electorate, and it was confirmed by those questioned themselves, were not informed enough regarding the complexity of the issues, in order to make an informed choice on the EU referendum."

To use a phrase coined by a Remainer earlier in this fred,
Democracy is just such a bastard

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Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 00:56

Yes, and the fact that we can continue to challenge, question, and debate the vote and the reasons for it is democracy.

Thanks for agreeing.

optionalrationale · 13/04/2017 00:56

Perhaps only Remainers should be allowed to vote

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Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 00:58

No one said that remainers were more informed.

SOME remainers might be, some might not be.

Carolinesbeanies · 13/04/2017 01:09

"The electoral commission thought that the UK electorate, and it was confirmed by those questioned themselves, were not informed enough regarding the complexity of the issues, in order to make an informed choice on the EU referendum. "

Source Danny? (see occasionally you can flush me out)

optionalrationale · 13/04/2017 01:10

Well at least we agree on something

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Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 01:13

There was a report, based on a study that took place in Nottingham well prior to the vote.

All that I can seem to find now is the post referendum report, but I read this in June well prior to the September publication.

Dannythechampion · 13/04/2017 01:17

September publication of the post referendum report I mean.

Carolinesbeanies · 13/04/2017 01:18

"There was a report, based on a study that took place in Nottingham well prior to the vote.

All that I can seem to find now is the post referendum report, but I read this in June well prior to the September publication."

Ohhhhh, thats ok then. I can go back to ignoring you.

optionalrationale · 13/04/2017 01:19

Dannythechampion

"There was a report, based on a study that took place in Nottingham well prior to the vote"...

Bloke said, down the pub..

It's so wonderful, Danny, that you ONLY deal in facts

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optionalrationale · 13/04/2017 01:21

Danny, I think it might be time for you (oh great paragon of hard facts), to slink off before anyone notices

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