Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

I'm a Remoaner/Remainer/Whatever... I voted Remain.
What I want is for Leavers to get on with the job of making this work (happy to do my bit ) ; stop acting like victims and blaming Remainer conspiracies when things don't go quite according to plan ; and stop rehashing Referendum arguments. It's what Donald Trump does - no flipping idea how to actually do stuff but campaigning about it is great fun.
And I want it now.

Ghost, here's a link from July 1993 describing how Margaret Thatcher was pushing via the HoL for a ref on Maastricht.

www.upi.com/Archives/1993/07/15/Lords-reject-Maastricht-referendum/3654742708800/

Also, it wasn't an 'internal Tory struggle' at all - Maastricht was vehemently opposed by many MPs across the parties, both within and outside of the HoC.

Maastricht was 25 years ago it was hardly mentioned during the referendum. Really scraping the barrell here...

"Some People are dogmatically opposed to the EU whatever it's form so blaming x, y or z is abit of a red herring."

Rubbish. Yes I am blaming John Major. Personally. I am blaming him for ignoring parliament who defeated him in a vote on the social chapter for example, and demanded the house pass the bill on a 'vote of confidence' instead. I am blaming him in utterly disregarding all the concerns the majority of the House put before him.

However he wasnt alone. Across europe, political leaders were doing exactly the same. 11 protestors to the Maastricht Treaty were shot by police in Denmark for heavens sake.

When you attempt to accuse Brexit of being somehow undemocratic, you merely need to look at Maastrict. John Major is personally responsible for that.

The fact theres no clear 'plan' for what happens to citizens, laws and regulations, etc in the event of terminating membership, should absolutely have been addressed and spelled out within the original treaty itself. It isnt, and John Major is indeed responsible for that.

So why leave? why is a "leap of faith" worth all the crap that even leavers are now acknowledging? What's the point?

Ghost, Maastrict is Brexit.

Maastricht was 25 years ago it was hardly mentioned during the referendum. Really scraping the barrell here...

It was as a direct result of Maastricht that UKIP was born.

Extremely relevant today.

Why leave?

To stop further integration.
To stop becoming entirely consumed by the EU superstate.
To get out now, even though it's problematic, before it becomes impossible.

There was no plan in 92 because UK wasn't leaving. In 2016 it was a toss of coin whether UK would leave. Cameron and the leave campaigns should have had a plan. Blaming a man who left office 20 yrs ago is laughable. There have been Tories opposed to the EU since 1974.

So mother, the real blame is that somebody asked the people what they wanted? Well there you go. Youre right. Its ridiculous.

Ukip are essentially euro sceptic Tories.

Ask 35 million people what they want for dinner see how much consensus you get. Referendums are a bad idea, that's why we have representative democracy.

Ghost - does your knowledge of the Euroscepticism & EU Ref extend only as far back as the last 2 years?

Margaret Thatcher on Maastricht:

"Nations feel comfortable in their own nationhood. Pride enables you to do things you otherwise might not be able to do. Europe should be each group in its own national identity. Don't try to extinguish that. If you try to push people into a mold, you'll create resentment, and you're creating it now...Maastricht was a Treaty which went totally in the wrong direction. It was a Treaty which took us from being an economic community with a kind of common market as our objective to trying to create a European union with a citizenship of that union."

"What is it about some of these people who enjoy the freedoms of democracy, who enjoy the elected representatives being accountable to the people? Why do they want to substitute bureaucracy for it? What's the matter, what's happened to them? I will tell you the European Commission loves its powers. Power for the sake of power. It's not what we fought for. We fought for democracy, freedom and justice...We just reelected our parliament. What for? Just to be a talking show?"

Nice to see how utterly insignificant we are at G7 now that we are heading out. As in "not nice and very dispiriting ".
Boris' suggestions on sanctions utterly dismissed.

I want this.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/193282

To be honest there isn't an outcome now that fits what I want which is:

• Single market access, especially for Financial Services which I depend on for job security and which I believe means economic stability for us as a nation

• To keep my EU citizenship and passport which I've had since birth and don't want to be forced to give up (and with it the right to live and work anywhere in the EU)

• To be tied more closely with European countries which I believe we have much more in common with and with which I believe our interests are more aligned, and less tied to the US which I believe is culturally quite different to us

• For my European friends that all work very hard in the UK to be given the right to remain quickly

• To continue in the scientific partnerships we are already committed to and be able to opt in to future ones

• To continue the same level of collaboration on security matters

I don't believe we'll get these things after Brexit and so, on that basis, I'm a RNMW. I believe a lot of people voted leave for the wrong reasons.

A minority are racist

A proportion voted because they're frustrated and felt that they were being 'left behind' by globalisation. I wish they could see that Brexit will not help them and they will not be better off. They've directed their (justifiable IMO) anger at the wrong place.

"This is a very odd post (unless you're under the impression that mumsnet is some sort of government thinktank). Maybe anon would like to tell is what practical measures we can take in order to make Brexit fail. I'm sure there will be a number of volunteers to put any suggestions to the test .

Brexit will succeed or fail on its merits; wishful thinking will make no difference to the outcome, whether it's brexiters or remainers doing the wishing."

^^This. What I think makes no difference now. Brexit won't fail because a MN poster said they'd prefer to RNMW. I have zero influence over the negotiations whatsoever.

Loving the forward thinking on this board today!

Yay - let's make our decisions based on what Margaret Thatcher was saying 25 years ago. Dear God. This is another good illustration of why referenda are a truly terrible idea.

My memories of Margaret Thatcher by the early 90s are that she was basically unhinged anyway. She could jump up and down about an issue as much as she liked but she was considered a busted flush.

Copper You do realise that the EU was the cornerstone of Margaret Thatchers reengineering of they UK economy. She sacrificed our manufacturing base because she believed that we could not compete with emerging economies like China, so she not only did not protect manufacturing with tariffs and tax breaks etc but subjected them to crippling local and national tax and utility charges that denied them any chance of building competitive advantage through more effective marketing strategies such as going upmarket.

Instead she embraced on a plan to build the UK as a service economy, tightened up regulation with the big bang and focused it on becoming Europe's banker / consultants/ accountants and creative industries. That is why the economy is now 70% service based and why it is so vulnerable to losing the benefits of the EU.

Whatever she thought about the Maastricht treaty she would never have divorced us from the source of the success of her economic strategy. I may not have agreed with Maggie in terms of her social policy but she understood the importance of managing the economy effectively and she had a plan and she implemented it very effectively indeed. She would never have proceeded in the cack handed fingers in ears manner of May and her Breiteers and for that i find myself warming to her for the first time in 45 years..............

So unhinged that her predictions were entirely correct on this matter.

My last post was in response to lalalonglegs.

I'm not in any way attempting to re-write Margaret Thatcher's decisions and direction in general whatwould, neither do I necessarily agree with some of them. However, the EU as it has become was exactly what she was warning against in the early 90s.

That's why she opposed Maastricht, not because she hated the EU but because she could see how all-encompassing it was becoming.
She was right in my opinion, it went too far, and Maastricht was the beginning of that.

I'd really like now to get rid of May as PM and the hard-line Tory right, and have someone in power who knows that the country is severely divided and that the first task must be to find a way to unite us.

May talks about a country which works for everyone, but her actions belie her words. She called the Tory party the Nasty party - it's the sum of its parts, so they must be the ones making it nasty.