Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

due to the over-reliance on cheap, imported labour

Meant to add 'already trained' to that sentence...

It's your Brexit. Your desire.

You make it work.

It's a stupid idea.

I will it get behind stupidity and lies.

Not will I get behind the clowns in charge of the show.

Just like I would never get behind the Tories and their active destruction of the NHS, our education system and our welfare state.

I won't get behind stupidity and lies. Can't even type.

Do any of you really believe that a single leaver wanted to leave but continue to pay into EC institutions and remain subject to European law?

Yes. Not only knowing quite a few, but when prominent Leave politicians were campaigning on sound bites like 'no one is talking about leaving the single market' and the media was full of talk of the Norwegian model, the Swiss model... yes, many Leave voters can be forgiven for thinking that it was entirely an option.

No more than Remain did the Leave campaigns present a consistent, disciplined position on quite a few issues. This was one of them.

I'm sorry if you think that we call all brexiters stupid, that wouldn't be my intention.

MO4D, there are several prominent Remain posters across the threads who are perfectly lovely & reasonable, just as there are Leavers.
I'm not remotely offended when posters get cross about stuff, disagree vociferously or make the odd sweeping generalisations etc, honestly! (I am as guilty of those things as anyone else).

It's the few that very deliberately make a point about lashing out at/being as twatty as possible about the 'other side' who piss me right off.

For eg
the leaver=racist trope which has been reignited again over the last couple of days is tedious; and there are a few posters who frame every single topic (things nothing to do with Brexit) in terms of how someone voted in the ref, which is so reductive & pathetic.

Mother,

The Euro nearly went down in 2012. The thing is that the banking system is arguably more vulnerable now than then.

I never denied that we would be hit harder than Europe (much harder) but it is MAD (mutually assured destruction), an outcome undesirable to either side. Please remember we are trying to negotiate an exit from a potential superstate, not at war with them!

Remainers now have to decide (as they did in the binary Leave / Remain debate) what they hope for.

Well I think that I've said very clearly what I want option. I want the process to be DEMOCRATIC and atm I don't feel it is.
I'm not sure what is your problem with that. Or are you saying that you have an issue with anyone who wants a democratic process and that people using the CORRECT channels such as going to Courts are against democracy?

As for the negociations themselves, I want a Brexit as soft as possible.
I want to FOM of people and goods.
I want to see some continuity regarding security and co operation between the Uk and what is now the EU (wo the UK).
I want to carry on seeing workers to be protected (or even more protected than they are now because really they aren't) and human rights to be protected too.
I want the right to carry on screaming as much as I want that Brexit will be a nightmare and was NOT the right decision for the UK. Just lime Labour would be screaming at benefits cuts (well in normal times...) decided by the Tories or the TOries would be screaming at spending over budget by a Labour government.
In effect a system similar to Switzerland.

Whether this is wanting the Uk to fail is another issue.
I do know that for some hard brexiters this is wishing for the UK to fail.
I would argue that this is what a lot of people have been voting for when they wanted Brexit.

And btw I fully agree with winkiwonka
It's your Brexit, you make it work FOR THE WHOLE OF THE COUNTRY, incl the 50% that didn't want it and incl the poorest people in the country, people on the NE and in Wales and in NI and other overseas territories (its not just about Gibraltar either).
I don't appreciate to be shouted down when I explain what I expect from Brexit because it didn't fit the right sort of idea some posters have.
As if it's not allowed to talk about democratic process. But it's OK to say 'I don't want the uncertainty' (no one does), I want to still have job (like everyone)etc... but please nothing that could challenge the idea that we, brexiters, are doing it wrong and yes the ONLY people that will be responsible for the result at the end ARE th brexiters. If it doesn't work, if it's hard work, which it will be, this will not be the fault of the Remainers, nor will it be the fault of the EU who have stated the rules right from the start)

What do I want?

I want people to realise what a terrible mistake they have made and to reverse the decision to leave the EU. However, I know that won't happen. I believe that people will realise in the end, but it will be too late then to change our minds.

With that in mind, I want the people who voted for Brexit to pay for it. However, I know that won't happen either, because we'll all be paying, for generations to come.

I have accepted that I can't have what I want. As for making it work, I don't think it can work, so that's a job for the Brexiteers, who presumably have a plan...or perhaps not.

I think we're all fucked. Is it wrong to want the people who voted for this to suffer more than the rest of us?

Perhaps anon could come back and explain her three options further:
on a practical level what do I have to do if I want to "try to makebrexit work" or if I chose I want to "try to make brexit fail."?

.......as well as the breathing room to really work on building up Britain again (infrastructure, training, transport links etc etc - all which have been decimated over the last 20+ years due to the over-reliance on cheap, imported labour).
Initially nothing to do with cheap imported labour. I lived in a textile town in my teens, in the 1960s. By the late sixties the mills were going bankrupt as the work started to go overseas.

as well as the breathing room to really work on building up Britain again (infrastructure, training, transport links etc etc - all which have been decimated over the last 20+ years due to the over-reliance on cheap, imported labour).

No, decimated because it was a deliberate policy from Maggie Thatcher onwards to run down industry and rely on services. Given that it's been deliberate Tory policy not to invest in industry and (rail) transport, what makes you think they will have a change of policy now?

Semi I don't believe that all Leavers are racist.

However, I do wish that there wasn't an increase in xenophobic attack (the one in Croydon being the last one that has been reported).
I wish that I haven't been made it feel I didn't deserve to live in this country and to have dare getting married to a brit and have British children.
I wish I wasn't worried about seeing my family split by the vote as me and DH do not have the same citizenship.

Atm, I'm counting years. If the latest rumours are to be believed, TM is happy to keep the FOM for another 5 years.
In 5 years time, my dcs will be 18 and 17yo. One finishing his A level and the other doing his AS level.
So I'm hoping that it will last another year and they will both have done their Alevel and be free to go wherever they want.
Whilst I can be sent back home with less worry for them.

Or of course, I could also 'chose' or rather be forced to take the British citizenship to be 'allowed' to stay. It won't make any more British than I am now. It won't make me more willing to be British or to be integrated in the community (I can hardly be more integrated with a British husband and children). But it certainly doesn't make me happy to have to do that because i have no choice. A bit like someone had put a gun on my head.
I do ressent the brexiters for that. A LOT. And so does British DH.

Please remember we are trying to negotiate an exit from a potential superstate, not at war with them!

Absolutely. However, many of Leave's chief cheerleaders in the press, giving media interviews, commentating and, I'm afraid to say, in the government, seem to think that that this is some sort of war or, at best, a zero-sum game. The bellicose tone of much of the "debate" and the demonisation of the EU (corrupt, out to punish us etc etc) does make me genuinely scared about what sort of deal we're going to be able to strike .

.......but when prominent Leave politicians were campaigning on sound bites like 'no one is talking about leaving the single market' and the media was full of talk of the Norwegian model, the Swiss model... yes, many Leave voters can be forgiven for thinking that it was entirely an option.

Hannan, Farage himself. If they weren't prominent Leave campaigners, tell me what they were?

Oh and I don't think we have a particularly strong hand in the first place so our tone should be waaaaay more conciliatory.

Fwiw, atm I am ensuring that my dcs lanagueg level in my language is string enough that they will be able to go to Europe at Uni. Bar the fact it will much much cheaper, I do not wish them to carry on living in a country with the mentalitynit is displaying nowdays.
I do not want them to live in a country that has no care at all for the weakest members of the society, that is happy to see inequalities increasing year after year, a society that works for the wealthiest but not for the others. A society that tells you that if you don't succeed it's because you haven't tried hard enough and it's all your fault. A society that has become so individualistic that other problems and struggles do not matter as long as they aren't affected by it of course
In effect I don't want to live in Tory dreamland.
Unfortunately, on the top of Brexit, we seem to be heading towards another two terms with the Tories which doesn't bode well at all.
And Brexit will also give the government this fantastic opportunity to distract people from all the other decisions it's going to take. No more problem implementing benefits cuts, or the % of children in poverty or how people with disability are treated or how the NHS is disappearing etc etc. We are doing Brexit!

Assuming failing Brexit means a no deal situation, then yes I agree.
Whee are heading in the direction of failing at Brexit because TM has used the British technique of i,posing her POV, using force to get what she wants.
And she is finding that actually the EU is much stronger that she thinks.

The other thing is that the EU way to strike a deal is by conciliation and negociations. Not by forcing your POV onto people.
The UK has acted as if they could decide what sort of style the negociations will be used. It's missing the fact that the Eu is big and has plenty of experience is negotiating deals. The UK kas none.

Lala,

Hollande and Juncker have hardly started on a positive note either. Now that the negotiations are really starting both sides are adjusting to the reality and the harsh tone is considerably softening in both sides.

semi the reason hard brexit won't work is not because there are a significant number actively fighting it.

This is cognitive dissonance in action. It's a compliment, but hardly realistic, to suggest that any voices of protest and resistance would be powerful enough to explain the failure of a 'hard brexit'.

Consumer spending is finally softening - not because of 'active' protest but instead because the 20% fall in sterling is finally starting to impact on people's' pockets, - bad news in an economy driven by consumer demand. Wasn't it Henry Ford who famously suggested that family cars and fridges were the key to a functioning democracy?

Hard brexit will fail because there isn't time (or genuine political will) to rebalance the economy towards exports to take advantage of the decline in our currency.

You'd think if "the EU needs us more than we need them," you'd think things would be clip clopping along far more nicely than they are.

But no. May chose to use security intelligence as a bargaining chip from the off.

We have always been chippy, resentful and sullen members of the EU. Perhaps the EU is better off without us in actual fact.

Like I said, your Brexit. You deal with it. And if you think 'moaners will get behind it and wave the Union Jack in unity, then you're barking.

It is funny the way some leavers are saying "you have to get behind brexit now" (otherwise it'll be your fault when it goes tits up?)

what does getting behind brexit mean? Stop asking questions?

Winky,

I suspect everyone on this board is a spectator here. None of us will be 'dealing with it'.