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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2017 21:42

The wheels on bus start to fall off, start to fall off…

Since Article 50 has been triggered – 8 days ago:

  1. A week after a terror attack in London, the government threatened to stop co-operation over security issues with the EU. This was quickly retracted as ‘not being a threat’. Except it was.

  2. The ‘Great’ Repeal Act White Paper was published. Its vague, lacks detail, does not have a draft bill and there is no plan for a public consultation over it. It proposes sweeping powers for the government without parliamentary scrutiny using Henry VIII powers.

  3. HMRC have said the new computer system planned for launch in 2019, won’t be able to cope with the additional work which leaving the Customs Union would produce. It would be five times the work load which sounds like a lot more red tape.

  4. Spain have said they would not oppose an Independent Scotland being in the EU.

  5. May’s article 50 letter did not mention Gibraltar and after the publication of the EU draft document on how the Brexit process would be handled, this looks like a massive error and oversight. One of the clauses was that any future arrangements with regard to Gibraltar had to be settled with Spain bi-laterally rather than by the EU and the UK’s agreement with the EU would not apply to Gibraltar, unless Spain agreed. This has been taken as an affront to Gibraltar’s sovereignty, although the document says nothing about sovereignty. Michael Howard, however, decided this was sufficient grounds to threaten our ally Spain with war.

May has not condemned his comments, and laughed it off. Though she was happy to get worked up about the word ‘Easter’ a couple of days later.

Of course, this situation was entirely predictable and was predicted yet this situation seems to have taken the government by surprise. Our reaction, in the context of everything else, has made the UK look like a basket case.

  1. The government’s plan to run talks on the UK’s settlement on leaving the EU in parallel with talks on the UK’s future relationship with the EU has been rejected by the EU. Instead we must do things in stages, with advancement to the next stage only possible after completing the last: Stage 1 – Exit, Stage 2 – Preliminary agreement on future relation, Stage 3 – Exit/Transition Deal, Stage 4 – As third country status enter a new deal.

The effect of this also means that deals we currently have with counties like South Korea through the EU need to be revisited. There is no guarantee these countries will want to continue trading with us on the same terms, if they do not want to.

  1. The EU has set out its own red lines. Our deal 'must encompass safeguards against...fiscal, social & environmental dumping'. Our transition deal must not last longer than three years and individual sectors, like banking, should not get special treatment.

Donald Tusk has said we don’t need a punishment deal as we are doing a good job of shooting ourselves in the foot, whilst Guy Verhofstadt said Brexit is Brexit is a 'catfight in Conservative party that got out of hand” and hoped future generations would reverse it.

  1. May has admitted that we might well have no deal in place by the time we leave the EU. Until now we have been told we would have a deal in two years. She has also admitted an extension of free movement of people beyond Brexit.

  2. The Brexit Select Committee published their report which warned about the dangers of exit without any deal, as well as talking about problems relating to the ‘Great’ Repeal Act, Gibraltar and NI. This is sensible and you’d think uncontroversial, but the Brexiteers threw the toys out of their pram saying it was too pessimistic. The government’s job is, of course, to plan for problems no matter how unlikely – such as disasters – and to hope that never happens. It seems that these Brexiteers don’t want to act responsibility or do their job.

  3. Questions at the WTO have been asked about how Brexit will affect them. Interest in the subject came initially from Indonesia about Tariff Rate Quotas, but other parties who were watching closely were Argentina, China, Russia and the United States.

  4. Phillip Hammond has openly said that there are a number of Tory MPs who want us to not make any agreement with the EU and to crash out in a chaotic exit.

  5. Polling has suggested that people want Brexit to be quick and cheap. Not only that, but the word ‘Brexit’ has started to poll badly. Instead the Brexit department are advising officials to use the phrase “new partnership with Europe”. Lynton Crosby, the mastermind behind 2015’s Conservative victory has also warned that the Tories would probably lose 30 seats they gained from the LDs at an early election.

Of course, even a 2020 election might prove challenging with a transition deal still likely to be unresolved as Brexit drags on. Government strategy is, apparently, to hope that Remainer's anger will have dissolved by 2020.

Eight days in, and the Brexit Bus looks like it strayed into 1980's Toxeth and got torched, its wheels nicked, and graffitied with obscenities over its £350million pledge.

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SwedishEdith · 12/04/2017 18:02

I think Spicer was just gobbing off before he realised what he'd got into. He has apologised now. You could see his face during the press conference - everything he said he realised he was digging a deeper hole. Sure, there are serious nasties within Trump's posse but this was just dumb foolishness, I think.

www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/business/media/sean-spicer-apology-holocaust-comments.html

comfortandjoyce · 12/04/2017 18:38

Since there's been literally zero mention of the Stockholm attack on this thread, here's a significant update (from the Guardian, so the facts won't be dismissed out of hand):

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/11/stockholm-attack-suspect-rakhmat-akilov-admits-terrorist

The main suspect in the truck attack in Stockholm that killed four and injured 15 has admitted committing a terrorist crime, his lawyer has said.

Akilov, from Uzbekistan, appeared in court wearing a thick green hoodie and holding his head down. After Eriksson’s statement, the rest of the hearing was held behind closed doors at the request of the public prosecutor’s office and journalists were told to wait outside.

On Monday, Akilov had demanded that his state-appointed lawyer be replaced with a Sunni Muslim – a request that was refused.

In 2014 he applied for a residence permit in Sweden, but last summer the application was rejected and he faced expulsion. In February, police were instructed to carry out the deportation, but he had disappeared.

A further arrest was made in Sollentuna, a northern suburb of Stockholm, on Sunday morning. More than 500 people had been interviewed, police said, adding that the main suspect had allegedly expressed sympathy for jihadi organisations.

The Swedish prime minister, Stefan Löfven, told a conference of the ruling Social Democratic party on Sunday: “It makes me extremely frustrated – if you have been turned down, leave the country.”

Löfven said he had strengthened border controls in response to the attack.

So plenty of discussion about Sean Spicer being an idiot (which he is) and Theresa May being a fascist (which she isn't), but not a single word about an asylum seeker in Sweden turning out to be a terrorist mass murderer. Elephants and rooms spring to mind.

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2017 18:45

Erm, no not elephants in rooms. Just desperation for someone to fit the stereotype.

OP posts:
HashiAsLarry · 12/04/2017 18:48

rtb did you not realise you were now running the BBC and need to mention everything Hmm

woman12345 · 12/04/2017 18:55

Is this a royal visit? Grin www.newstatesman.com/2017/04/if-kate-middleton-secretly-using-mumsnet-she-one-us

comfortandjoyce · 12/04/2017 18:57

RedToothBrush

Erm, no not elephants in rooms. Just desperation for someone to fit the stereotype.

More like your desperation to suppress the fact that sometimes - not always, but certainly in this case - the stereotype is the reality. Even the Swedish PM is strengthening the borders and demanding that failed asylum seekers leave the country - is he a fascist? I think we should be told!

comfortandjoyce · 12/04/2017 19:02

HashiAsLarry

did you not realise you were now running the BBC and need to mention everything

All kinds of news, major and minor, gets sifted through in extreme detail on these threads. That makes the omission of a major news event particularly telling, doesn't it? Unless you think this isn't newsworthy at all?

thecatfromjapan · 12/04/2017 19:04

I've just seen the LibDem advert. It's good. It really condensed what it has felt like to have been listening to the news since the Referendum result.

With regard to 'negative news/voices' being frozen out of 'audiences' with the government - that is why I asked up-thread if anyone else had seen the Goldmann Sachs Twitter ads and whether people thought it was because they weren't getting access to the government by usual channels.

HashiAsLarry · 12/04/2017 19:04

Both the French and Swedes, both Schengen countries, have strengthened their borders following attacks. So what's stopping the UK then, because its not the EU clearly? Not that these facts will mean anything when arguing against the behemoth though Hmm

HashiAsLarry · 12/04/2017 19:07

comfort many things get missed. The Russian attacks and last night's attack on the BVB team bus haven't been mentioned. Nor has the Antiques expert who died after a postpartum psychotic episode. Or even the DM having to pay Melania Trump for more of its lies which is amusing as hell. Or the DM's lies about the United airlines passenger. Or United airlines. Or the pepsi ad. Keep digging though.

comfortandjoyce · 12/04/2017 19:17

Hashi

Both the French and Swedes, both Schengen countries, have strengthened their borders following attacks. So what's stopping the UK then, because its not the EU clearly?

I'm not making an anti-EU point in particular. I'm arguing against the notion - so common on here - that opening our borders to all and sundry carries no risks and that the only people who could possibly oppose open borders are irrational, evil, xenophobic fascists.

There is clear empirical evidence that open borders mean making a trade-off between humanitarianism and public safety. I prefer the latter, some will prefer the former. Both are legitimate points of view.

Mistigri · 12/04/2017 19:17

This thread is about brexit, not about terrorism. Leaving the EU will make little difference to the risk of terrorist activities by homegrown terrorists like the Westminster one, or those from non-EU countries. The Stockholm attack was, as comfort helpfully reminds us, from Uzbekistan (not in EU; not a candidate to join the EU).

If anyone wants to talk about the Stockholm attack, they just start a thread, surely? We talk about lots of things on here, but no one dictates the choice of topic, although most of the discussion has at least a tangential relationship with Brexit (whereas the Stockholm attack doesn't have anything to do with brexit at all).

Mistigri · 12/04/2017 19:23

opening our borders to all and sundry

Who has suggested that?

If you're worried about Uzbeks, as you appear to be, then leaving the EU will make no difference to border controls for visitors from this country. I hope that makes you feel a little safer.

HashiAsLarry · 12/04/2017 19:23

I'm arguing against the notion - so common on here - that opening our borders to all and sundry carries no risks and that the only people who could possibly oppose open borders are irrational, evil, xenophobic fascists.
No one here has ever argued our borders should be open. Straw man again

BigChocFrenzy · 12/04/2017 19:25

Spicer is the official spokesperson for Trump, the leader of the only world superpower.
So he is important.

Politicians like Trump, Assad, Putin can start wars that kill hundreds of thousands, create millions of refugees - and create a chaotic vacuum where terrorist organisations grow.

Politicians like May sell weapons worth billions to Saudi Arabia, who fund much of the terrorism against the West

So our thread deals with the makers and shakers

An individual terrorist isn't important and isn't worth our thread space, our attention, or our spit.
imo, one of the techniques to combat terrorism is not to give them the fuel of publicity that they love,
don't publicise their names,
don't give them their 15 minutes of fame.

However, I'm sure there are plenty of threads around where you can tell each other how horrible and frightening Muslims are.

comfortandjoyce · 12/04/2017 19:32

Mistigri

opening our borders to all and sundry

Who has suggested that?

HashiAsLarry

No one here has ever argued our borders should be open. Straw man again

You're going to make me copy and paste, aren't you? OK:

BluePeppersAndBroccoli Wed 12-Apr-17 15:34:51

Interesting point in hoe TM is much more dangerous than DT and how she says in what thing but is sneakily doing the other.
Short but to the point imo

^www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2017/apr/12/theresa-may-is-more-dangerous-than-donald-trump-opinion-video^

woman12345 Wed 12-Apr-17 17:17:40

Kehinde Andrews argues well in that link BluePeppers that May's a fascist

The Guardian video by Kehinde Andrews calls our PM a fascist for not opening our borders to mass migration from across the Med, a conclusion heartily endorsed above.

If that was relevant to the thread, then so is my argument against that conclusion.

HashiAsLarry · 12/04/2017 19:35

Opening the borders to mass migration from a particular area isn't quite the same as opening it to all and sundry. Unless your building a massive straw man

woman12345 · 12/04/2017 19:36

Fascism means:
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organisation.

Which bit of that is May not?

BigChocFrenzy · 12/04/2017 19:37

I can't remember anyone posting here who wanted open borders to the world
We think we should help refugees, but iirc there are 65 million genuine refugees in the world.
Obviously we need to help them in safe havens in their own countries / nearby.

The main thing is to not to start wars for oil (US) and military bases (Russia) which just create yet more refugees - and terrorists

Some Leavers in fact criticise the EU as a rich white club Grin can't win !

The EU is basically like a closed union shop.
The 27 / 28 members have privileges like FOM and the single market and financial passporting
3rd countries - everyone else - don't.

woman12345 · 12/04/2017 19:37

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/12/brexit-ireland-nationalist-united

We need to remember the past and not be condemned to repeat it.
The marching season is round the corner, and although Easter is always a popular time for anti semitism, May will need a more talented negotiator than Brokenshire. She won't be able to bluff through on NI either.

The worst terrorism I've ever known in Britain was during the Irish civil war or 'troubles'.

Deportation deaths, threats of deportation of British citizens, ESA suicides and accusing those who disagree with you of being traitors terrify me.

Mistigri · 12/04/2017 19:38

The thread tends to deal with all things brexit plus topics that regulars happen to be interested in, which turn up rather randomly depending on who's around.

We talk about the French elections for example not just because of the link to brexit (you can guarantee that any Briton who cheerleads for the Front National voted to leave) but because there are a few of us on the thread who happen to live and work in France.

I don't mind discussing terrorism as long as it's not just another excuse for a bit of casual racism and islamophobia (didn't comfort get the memo? Brexiters definitely aren't racist lol). If we are going to talk about terrorism, there's plenty of choice; take your pick:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_April_2017

You will note that, as usual, most victims of terrorism are not in Europe.

comfortandjoyce · 12/04/2017 19:38

BigChocFrenzy

So our thread deals with the makers and shakers

Do you actually believe this rubbish? You're telling me that these
dozens of threads have only ever dealt with the "makers and shakers"? Because they deal with small fry all the time.

An individual terrorist isn't important and isn't worth our thread space, our attention, or our spit.
imo, one of the techniques to combat terrorism is not to give them the fuel of publicity that they love,
don't publicise their names,
don't give them their 15 minutes of fame.

Does ignoring a problem ever make it go away? Your argument is disingenuous anyway - you're ignoring the reality because it doesn't fit your utopian internationalism.

Mistigri · 12/04/2017 19:41

So you are holding us responsible for a Guardian video? Lol.

What have borders got to do with brexit anyway? Border security won't change, although it might have to contend with a lot more attempted crossings from France if the Le Touquet agreement is a victim of brexit.

thecatfromjapan · 12/04/2017 19:41

I realise that comfort is demanding a lot of attention but ... can I repeat my (not attention-seeking) question (and please imagine me asking in a plaintive, rather than belligerent way):

Has anyone else seen the LibDem advert?

woman12345 · 12/04/2017 19:42

I may have taken a more nuanced interpretation than Andrews, but I particularly agreed with his use of Malcolm X's take on comparing southern wolves to northern foxes. I can see it's relevance to May.

Like calling out racism, calling out authoritarianism, which overlaps with fascism, seems to be problematic, but I still reserve the right to do so. Smile