what does sovereignty mean?

[ssd]

does it making the Uk making its own laws?

in other words the Conservative government making up the laws?

is that what leavers voted for?

Sorry, again.

Some of the leave vote. Fine. Sorry its true not all of the leave vote think the same way.

Really I am sorry, I'm sure you're very nice, IABU

When are we going to get international agreements that suit all parties?

In fact in most cases EU rulings, laws etc, were mostly in line with government policy.

That's the crux of it all for me, making out like were going to get all the decision making power when we won't and we never really lost it at all is utterly dishonest, and the economic gamble that was the risk seems to be far greater.

Thank you. Anyway it is late so I will say goodnight (and that's from all 17,410,742 of us )

I think most leavers are getting a bit bored of being called racists.

Then let's see you organise a big campaign to get Farage ( a known racist) off the BBC at every turn. Complaints from us Remainers fall on deaf ears; you might do better.

To be fair, UKIP's poor showing in all by-elections is some proof that Leavers aren't all racist, but they are a very noisy minority who have tarred you with the same brush.

they are a very noisy minority who have tarred you with the same brush

I think most of the tarring was done by those remainers who call all leave voters racist.

It is their responsibility to correct their misrepresentation.

Problem is that your movement galvanised the racist vote to win, and so many people across many sites have also wrongly blamed immigration for so many things, whilst claiming they're not prejudiced,. People who will dismiss any of the research on the subject as biased, yet say "I've seen" or "I know " etc rather than looking at actual facts, and still blame immigration.

Of course there are some who naively believe the stuff about treating everyone from all countries the same, or thought that very nuanced points regarding sovereignty were worth throwing the country into economic turmoil.

There are others who really want rid of the EU so they can bring about the low tax, low regulation haven of neo liberal wet dreams.

But, you all voted with the racists and their vote was pandered to by the leaders of your movement and its the ONLY reason you got what you wanted.

You have to live with that.

And to be honest, if I was going to contact the BBC about their coverage, I would be more inclined to challenge them on their anti-leave and anti-Brexit bias.

And actually, your point has made me realise why Farage gets so much airtime on the BBC. If you put together the fact that he clearly gets a totally dissproportionate amount of exposure with the clear anti-Brexit agenda of the BBC, it suggests that the BBC are trying to exploit the "Farage Effect" (see All Out War) which is that exposure of Farage simultaneously increases support for Farage and Ukip and reduces support for leave. (This is the reason D Carswell defected to Ukip, according to All Out War, to try to weaken the Farage effect). Mmm.

"I would be more inclined to challenge them on their anti-leave and anti-Brexit bias."

Don't make me laugh, anti brexit bias?

Farage doesn't just get disproportionate air time, but he's most often accompanied by another leave supporter and others. The audiences in many question times were overwhelmingly for brexit, utterly disporportionate to the closeness of the vote.

The rest of your post seems a bit conspiracy theorist tbf

Why does the BBC seem anti brexit? Well you can' polish a turd can you, you can roll it in glitter, but it still smells.

There hasn't actually been any "good" Brexit news at all yet, so that might be why.

Of course there are some who naively believe the stuff about treating everyone from all countries the same, or thought that very nuanced points regarding sovereignty were worth throwing the country into economic turmoil

To you, the issues about soveriegnty - aka running our own country - may be nuanced points. To others, clearly, they are important fundamental principles with very real practical implications.

There are others who really want rid of the EU so they can bring about the low tax, low regulation haven of neo liberal wet dreams

And there are those who voted leave to escape the neo liberal wet dream that is the EU.

But, you all voted with the racists and their vote was pandered to by the leaders of your movement and its the ONLY reason you got what you wanted

You have to live with that

Do you know, some pretty despicable people voted remain. You know, the kind of people who suggest people over 60 shouldn't have a vote, or that those with less qualifications shouldn't vote. Or who think it's okay to call people they don't know racist and stupid.

You have aligned yourself with these people, and will have to live with it.

"To others, clearly, they are important fundamental principles with very real practical implications. "

They appear not to be because off all the claims of new deals, or the attempts to deny parliamentary sovereignty, and supporting the government in doing this.

Pray tell which EU laws do you think made life for you or others more difficult?

"And there are those who voted leave to escape the neo liberal wet dream that is the EU"

Then they are utterly deluded, and the EU is actually far less neo liberal than the UK is even in the EU. Many other EU countries are far more socially democratic, and are allowed to be so cause you know, sovereignty.

"You have aligned yourself with these people, and will have to live with it."

Fine, but they are very small minorities within the vote, your side, not so. Your side demonised asylum seekers, is responsible for the rise in racist incidents and hate crimes.

In essence a few scumbags doesn't trump several million.

inews.co.uk/essentials/news/bbc-issues-punchy-riposte-mps-round-broadcaster-brexit-coverage/

No Brexit good news yet? So weren't you pleased when the economy didn't crash immediately after the vote, or when it didn't crash when A50 was triggered?

Conspiracy theory? Would you think it a conspiracy theory that D Carswell joined Ukip to "detoxify" it for the benefit of the leave campaign? Have you read All Out War? It's really enlightening actually and gives a good insight into the machinations on all sides leading up to the referendum. I do recommend it.

What's your explanation as to why the BBC, which I think we can agree is not a right wing body, gives Farage so much airtime?

www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/10/Ad-Hominem-Guilt-by-Association

Yes and this:

Is a counter letter signed by more MPs.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39445745

In the 15 years prior to the vote, the BBC's coverage of the EU was more negative than that of Putin!

www.theguardian.com/media/2016/apr/21/bbc-eu-reporting-putin-coverage

I think Farage gets so much time because he's actually the socially acceptable face of UKIP, and one of the few that could manage on QT, also as leader he hoovered up the invites.

Farage has been on 12 times ( might be one more by now) but mainly because he wanted the slots offered to UKIP for himself rather than sharing them. Just need to look at the media career hes building to see why.

What's your explanation as to why the BBC, which I think we can agree is not a right wing body, gives Farage so much airtime?

There have been studies (or possibly just one; I can't recall the details or find the source; sorry for vagueness) showing that if anything the BBC IS slightly right-leaning, rather than the hotbed of leftie loons it is popularly portrayed as.

But anyway, my opinion is that the Beeb gives Farage lots of airtime because he gets ratings up. Which is not particularly edifying.

To others, clearly, they are important fundamental principles with very real practical implications

They appear not to be because off all the claims of new deals, or the attempts to deny parliamentary sovereignty, and supporting the government in doing this

Again, we are not the Borg. I supported the court challenges and judgement - I think they were positive for our democracy. I'm not sure what you mean by new deals. If you are talking about a phased approach to Brexit, I think many leavers take the long view and would be happy with that, if it brings other benefits (less short term economic instability but still achieving the same long term goal etc).

Sadly, in my view, it's not a few scumbags. I have been truly horrified at some of the many things I have read from some remainers. I would be just as frightened at the idea of these people gaining more power as of Ukip doing so. Bigotry comes in any forms, and sadly these days, from directions we wouldn't expect.

Sapphire I'd be interested to read the study(s) if you can find them. I am not arguing that the BBC is particularly left wing. I really don't think its Ukip style right wing though. I was talking specifically about its anti-Brexit agenda which is not really a left/right issue.

Going back a few posts to the BBC/Farage everywhere point. My view is that he gets the invites and coverage because of his 'way', he doesn't dress anything up to appease people/party members, he cuts to the chase and says what he thinks, which, believe it or not, I find quite refreshing (but that doesn't mean I agree with what he says) and the same can be said of Trump, it seemed his campaign had more coverage than Clinton's and for the same reason. A lot of people have had enough of namby pamby politicians who are full of hot air and think only of their party members (this is why our political parties are pretty much a shambles at the moment). I would much rather listen to the style of questions and answers from someone like Farage than the bumbling ramblings of Corbyn and I am definitely no UKIP supporter.

I've been more horrified by the behaviour of leave voters.

The Sovereignty points are valid, because any new trade deal and WTO membership will lead to minor sovereignty points, like with the EU, being ceded to other bodies. We will still have to abide by rulings by courts other than they UK, follow internationally agreed regulations etc.

When it comes down to it, the amount of power the EU had was very small, and the accusations of "faceless bureaucrats" demonstrated a massive lack of understanding about the EU process of policy making.

So if people don't really understand democracy and sovereignty, I think that its a front for something else.

"No Brexit good news yet? So weren't you pleased when the economy didn't crash immediately after the vote, or when it didn't crash when A50 was triggered?"

Ok the fact that the economy didn't crash was good news, but not really that good, as the growth that we did have was lower than expected than if we had remained. That's the one bit of good news. However its consumer led growth, based on consumer borrowing, investment has actually fallen.

The big investment news Google and Nissan etc, was all decided prior to the vote, and Nissan needed "assurances" and have said they will monitor the situation so its not done yet.

' I would much rather listen to the style of questions and answers from someone like Farage than the bumbling ramblings of Corbyn and I am definitely no UKIP supporter.'

Yes me too!

Corbyn isn't namby pamby at all, I also don't think he rambles.

Farage is a wet public school boy, who like I said, takes every invite UKIP get to go on QT for himself to boost his media career, oh and he is full of hot air. He talks crap about immigration, or what the EU "dictates" to us. Listen to his speech yesterday about them being "gangsters" its incorrect, and mainly delivered to get media coverage back home.

Its interesting in these conversations that Farages nonofficial campaignsoutrageous claims are often sited as an explanation of how millions of stupid and old people were brainwashed into racism. Yet its never mentioned how many of the young or wealthy liberal elite were brainwashed by the official project fear campaign. How many outrageous lies about punishment budgets, job loses, consumer panic and recession scared people into voting to stay. Maybe if remain had been more honest more people would have voted leave and the country would be more united about Brexit.

The campaign was pretty long, why didn't remain just point out all the lies leave were making. Surly they would have been easy to repudiate. I dont remember the Lid Dems campaigning that the result should be ignored because we wont know what it means. I do remember people voting leave in spite of the apocalyptic predictions of project fear, so you cant really say people weren't warned.

Were people racist before the Brexit or was Brexit an expressions of long held beliefs. Was Brexit an expression of racism or was it a convenient hat for re-moaners to hang their hat on. Where is the evidence that anyone was even swayed by the campaigns? Most research I have seen shows most peoples minds are made up long before election campaigns start.

As for Farrage on the BBC. What a load of bollocks. Farrage represents the right wing UKIP voters. Of which at the last election there was more of them than the LD and SNP combined. So in search of pure political balance NF should be on QT a bit more that all SNP and LD representatives combined. Looking at the numbers UKIP is still very much under represented on the BBCs Question Time. So seems the bias is for left wing parties.

"Yet its never mentioned how many of the young or wealthy liberal elite were brainwashed by the official project fear campaign."

Are you denying that there are economic risks? Lets be honest, a lot of negative economic things have happened since the vote, and many of the predictions were Long term on the impact of coming out.

Delaying article 50 staved off the immediate uncertainty and so probably avoided the recession.

I think the negative and untrue reporting of the EU over years had a large impact and of course the immigration thing is huge.

If you go back and watch documentaries from the 80s 70s, 60s, immigration has been a massive issue for people, its never gone away.

Arguing that we would "take back control" of immigration appeals to the people who have held these views however incorrect it might be. However it didn't mean that it would be cut, just "controlled" and many people lack the critical analysis skills to understand that.

Are you denying that there are economic risks?
Not at all, there were risks either way.

a lot of negative economic things have happened since the vote
But nothing major and a lot of positive things happened as well. Who can say if they wouldn't have happened anyway, if we had voted stay. I certainly remember a lot of economists saying the pound was over valued long before the referendum. And its swings and roundabouts, cheaper exports more expensive imports...

and many of the predictions were Long term on the impact of coming out
and many were supposed to start the day after we voted to leave. But GDP increased by 0.7%, up from 0.6%. The OBR revised 2017 growth forecast from 1.4% to 2%. The FTSE 100 has risen 16% since the referendum. House prices continue to rise. Our trade deficit in goods and services remains steady and unchanged. Output in the construction industry is rising. Unemployment is still going down. zzzzzzz

Delaying article 50 staved off the immediate uncertainty and so probably avoided the recession.
Assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

the negative and untrue reporting of the EU over years had a large impact
Assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

The economic growth after brexit was lower than expected if we hadn't left, the OBR revised growth statistics were based on what they expected to happen if we left, not what they had predicted had we remained.

The recession was most certainly averted by the delay to article 50, had Cameron declared art 50 immediately there would have been a much larger impact on the economy because the uncertainty would have been far higher.

The negative reporting of the EU ? Doesn't have evidence? There's a link to the BBC's of it above. The negative reporting in the right wing press has been going on for decades.

"a lot of positive things happened as well"

Assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

I have seen - a Pole killed because of race hatred.
A Spanish lady being found dead in Bristol and it was known that she was worried she might be deported as an EU national, and she couldn't afford to take out citizenship.
Farmers grumbling that they won't be able to get staff to pick crops,
Families split and not speaking to each other.
EU scientists leaving.
A 90% drop in EU staff coming to take up nursing posts.
A Government sucking up to the vilest of Dictators.

All these things might have happened, but none of them are what I would call positive.