what does sovereignty mean?

[ssd]

does it making the Uk making its own laws?

in other words the Conservative government making up the laws?

is that what leavers voted for?

It's very telling when the only 'positive' which can be touted is the economy didn't crash immediately

Could we have some actual, real benefits of leaving please?

You know, tangible things which will improve our lives?

Being pleased it hasn't gone to rat shit yet doesn't exactly seems to be a bonus to me.

Can we add, rising inflation, falling investment by a third, 100,000 city jobs threatened, no changes to the budget on benefits, £60 bn set aside by the government to deal with Brexit led uncertainty so not spent on services. Car firms need "reassurances" , firms beginning to relocate etc.

Not good at all.

Positives would be things like:

A genuine commitment to the NHS, A commitment to education, a commitment to improving the transport infrastructure. A commitment to supporting British industry. I have seen politicians running round the world, I haven't seen many going to the North and West and asking what industry they need and how these industries can be helped get off the ground.

Just for my tuppence worth. And a bit out of context as it from a convo a couple of pages back, Some people are never off the screens. Daily Politics, Question time, Andrew Marr, Sunday Politics. Mainstream shows that get to most people.

Sometimes I don't bother watching some segments now. Isobel Oakeshott, the Sun guy. Supposed neutral talking heads. Wall to wall Murdoch and Dacre representatives. Andrew Neil, too .

Dominic Rabb (Lord Haw Haw type in my opinion), Theresa Villiers, Gove, Johnson, Crispin Blunt, Toby Young. Even bl**dy Redwood (whose most momentous performance is doing la, la , la, la whilst everyone else was singing) is now back on screen. And Peter Bone, Suella Fernandes - why? Not forgetting Nuttall, O'Flynn, Farage (maybe Mosley), Suzanne Evans, Carswell, Arron Banks ("the man who bought Brexit", so much for vote against elites), the Batten fellow, Roger Helmer. Always one or two of them on. At least Godfrey Bloom (what is there to say?) is off.

There are 73 UK MEP's, but always one of the 20 UKIP MEP's on and they are never talking about what their actual job is. Even though they don't really do their job, they are not giving proceeds to charity.

I agree on the BBC thing.

Most allegations of bias come from people who only ever see the "other side" getting their fair slice, they don't look at how much the ones they support get.

There's a study by Cardiff University, that finds that it leans slightly to the right ;

theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-biased-is-the-bbc-17028

So totally not all loony lefty liberals.

Oh, yes! I forgot Penny Mordaunt who told her porkies on Andrew Marr. She has been on since. Can anything she says be taken at face value, again? Her answers should be followed by "Are you lying now?" or "How do I know you are not lying like before".

I was shocked by the fact someone who told a bare face lie on tv was promoted. A person used to have to resign once. At least for a little while!

I voted not for sovereignty but specifically for accountability. We will now know who is responsible for what and as such will be more politically empowered than before.

I wasn't prepared for how divisive this vote would make us as a country or for the increase in hate crimes. It's abhorrent. Therefore I regret that we were asked to make this choice. I find it sad that these threads are still seeking to blame those that voted. In my mind, those to blame are the ones who are passionately remain whilst having voted in govt which promised a referendum.

Interesting, because they also voted in a gov't who said they were going to have a better go at the single market. That seems to have been separate of the referendum issue.

Maybe it was the entire 52% of leavers voted in the gov't. And only a smidgin of remainers who took the single market point as at worst a Norway option. Which is now being reneged on, in their minds.

Peregrina

I have seen - a Pole killed because of race hatred

Please can you give details? The killing of
Arkadiusz Jóźwik, which was originally reported as a hate crime, was not prosecuted as such so was deemed by the police not to be racially motivated. Are you talking about a different death?

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/01/boy-15-charged-with-killing-of-polish-man-in-harlow

A Spanish lady being found dead in Bristol and it was known that she was worried she might be deported as an EU national, and she couldn't afford to take out citizenship

Sadly, more than 6000 people a year commit suicide in the UK. The Guardian article about this lady reported that the inquest verdict was not suicide. It also reported a whole string of issues affecting the person - depression, job problems, loneliness, family issues etc. Unfortunately, one aspect of depression is to let things get out of proportion. It is very, very unlikely this lady would have faced reportion, but when people are depressed they can't always see the reality. I think to blame this sad case on Brexit is a bit low really.

Any update on those positive brompton?

From the Samaritans guidelines on reporting suicides:

3. Avoid over-simplification
Approximately 90 per cent of people who die by suicide have a diagnosed or undiagnosed mental health problem at the time of death

Over-simplification of the causes or perceived ‘triggers’ for a suicide can be misleading and is unlikely to reflect accurately the complexity of suicide

For example, avoid the suggestion that a single incident, such as loss of a job, relationship breakdown or bereavement, was the cause

www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide/advice-journalists-suicide-reporting-dos-and-donts

Typical leaver, negating responsibility, always someone else's fault.

Look, yesterday you apologised for your continual lumping of all leave voters in as an amorphous mass and were telling me I was probably a nice person (I am). Today I've driven someone to suicide

Fwiw, I think trying to make political capital out of the suicide of a depressed person with multiple problems is about as low as you can go. If you'd bothered to read the Samaritans link, you might have grasped this.

It's only a few days since rorty was on these threads relishing the thought of Remainers commiting suicide following the invoking of A50.

Joke or not at the time- Not so funny now is it?

I'm not saying that you did.

But I think avoiding the fact that the leave vote, and the uncertainity, the people being deported will have had a detrimental effect on people is a bit off. People who may have had anxiety /depression issues could have been driven over the edge.

I'm not claiming political capital out of anything, but I think that the othering of immigrants and the extremely negative campaign regarding could put a lot of people into very dark places.

This was used as an example of bad news, or poor news following the ref that was connected with it, it won't be the only thing, but it will be part of it.

But I think avoiding the fact that the leave vote, and the uncertainity, the people being deported will have had a detrimental effect on people is a bit off. People who may have had anxiety /depression issues could have been driven over the edge

No-one has been deported because of Brexit. The signs are that a deal will be struck allowing EU nationals in the UK and vice versa to stay. Perhaps people should be a bit more circumspect about whipping up unnecessary fears.

And yes, Brexit will cause uncertainty for some people. Remaining in the EU would have caused uncertainty and stress for some people. The effects of globalisation over the last decades have caused huge problems and stress for many. Are we bothered about any of this, or does it only count if it is Brexit causing upset?

"Remaining in the EU would have caused uncertainty and stress for some people. "

Really? I doubt that the equivalent effect is that large.

What do you think is going to happen with our new trade deals with other countries and globalisation? This is the dichotomy between what was promised to these people and what is the actual impact of leaving.

If anything the EU protected more people from globalisation than we are going to in the future.

Blaming the EU for the effects of globalisation and structural change within the country is incorrect too.

I think for many Brexiters "sovereignty" is as simple as deciding whether bananas should be straight or bendy, how much fish can be caught in British waters, and deporting criminals without worrying about whether to do so would be in breach of the Convention on Human Rights

"Remaining in the EU would have caused uncertainty and stress for some people. "

Really? I doubt that the equivalent effect is that large

Odd that people voted to leave something they felt so content and secure about though isn't it?

I hadn't been aware that the Police decided not to prosecute. I think it's a sad reflection on our society when 15 year olds kick people to death.
Similarly, 6000 suicides is 6000 too many. What was Mrs May saying about Mental Health? What action has she taken?Now that she is no longer hamstrung by the EU on both these matters (not that she ever was), I look forward to her actions.

Odd that people voted to leave something they felt so content and secure about though isn't it?

It most certainly is odd.

You are completely unable to give us any examples of how our lives will be better outside the EU.

"Odd that people voted to leave something they felt so content and secure about though isn't it?"

Yes because being in the EU made people feel unsecure, we've been in it 41 years ( of sorts) and I don't notice many people speaking about how it makes them insecure.

I do see them blaming immigration for all the woes of the UK, incorrectly, but that's what the facts are.

I do see them misunderstanding the way the EU works because the press have misreported it for decades.

Its not odd that a country in which immigration has been an issue for decades, when finally given what they thought was a vote on immigration voted the way that seemed to say they would cut it/stop it.

You have to wonder who the Westminster Govt will flog the fishing rights off to next, although I have to wonder just how many fish are swimming within the 12 mile limits.

I know that Mrs May would like to get rid of the ECHR, but it was drafted by the Council of Europe, and one of its leading authors was a British lawyer who had served at the Nuremberg trials. The Council of Europe now includes what some might regard as strange bedfellows - Russia for one, but with a predominance of Western European countries including the UK, being founder members in 1949. Ask yourself why someone who served at Nuremberg drew it up.
Mrs May,could do so, but so far she has shown she is not a student of history.