what does sovereignty mean?

[ssd]

does it making the Uk making its own laws?

in other words the Conservative government making up the laws?

is that what leavers voted for?

I just want to make an obvious point, which is that however democratic the decision making process, the bigger any organisation or group gets, the less the amount of control individuals have in its decisions.

This is why most people live alone or in family units rather than in communes and is why I don't go on holiday with my relatives anymore

people of the EU should be people of UK

unlike the EU Don't you vote for your MEP?

Being in the EU means the UK has to accept laws and policies which the people of the EU do not want. Freedom of Movement is an obvious example.

I had always assumed that the freedom of EU nationals to move around the EU was one of the most popular policies. Maybe I should pay more attention to far right extremists.

the bigger any organisation or group gets, the less the amount of control individuals have in decisions.

That's how I feel about the use of referendum as a mechanism for resolving such a complex issue - which involves both real (whatever this means in this context!) and perceived 'control'.

The idea that you get a better quality decision on such a complicated issue by asking 64 million ordinary people one day in June is just barmy.

There are some really good popular books that look at the psychology of decision making that make you think hard about this - eg kahnemann's 'thinking fast and slow', and the scary new 'must read' 'homo deus' by yuval Harari.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-white-paper-uk-parliament-remian-sovereign-eu-membership-referendum-campaign-brussels-article-a7559556.html?amp

Parliament has “remained sovereign throughout our membership to the EU” despite people “not always feeling like that”, the Brexit White Paper says....

And Figment.... I absolutely agree!

The idea that you get a better quality decision on such a complicated issue by asking 64 million ordinary people one day in June is just barmy.

I totally agree. You shouldn't let the little people have a say. Leave it all to the eurocrats because they know best.

Leaving the EU is quite useful because it removes a screen for UK parliamentarians to hide behind. At the moment they can wring their hands and blame it all on 'others'. They've lost that excuse now so they will have to raise their game. Which is a good thing.

Being in the EU means the UK has to accept laws and policies which the people of the EU do not want. Freedom of Movement is an obvious example

I had always assumed that the freedom of EU nationals to move around the EU was one of the most popular policies. Maybe I should pay more attention to far right extremists

You will see that I corrected people of the EU to people of the UK at 8.23

If you believe the only people in the UK who don't want Freedom of Movement are right wing extremists, well ....

Parliament has “remained sovereign throughout our membership to the EU” despite people “not always feeling like that”, the Brexit White Paper says....

Simple as that.

Extract from Guy Verhofstadt’s speech (Chief Brexit negotiator for the European Parliament:

"Perhaps it was always impossible to unite Great Britain with the continent. Naive to reconcile the legal system of Napoleon with the common law of the British empire. Perhaps it was never meant to be.

But, our predecessors should never be blamed for having tried. Never. It’s as important in politics as it is in life: to try; new partnerships, new horizons, to reach out to each other, the other side of the Channel. I am also sure that - one day or another - there will be a young man or woman who will try again, who will lead Britain into the European family once again. A young generation that will see Brexit for what it really is: a catfight in the Conservative party that got out of hand, a loss of time, a waste of energy, stupidity.

Let’s not forget: Britain entered the union as the ‘sick man of Europe’ and - thanks to the single market - came out of the other side. Europe made Britain also punch above its weight in terms of geopolitics, as in the heydays of the British empire. And we from our side must pay tribute to Britain’s immense contributions: a staunch, unmatched defender of free markets and civil liberties. Thank you for that. As a liberal, I tell you, I will miss that".

"A catfight in the Conservative party that got out of hand"

Well, yes. Shame we all have to pay the price.

From Verhofstadt's speech.

"And we from our side must pay tribute to Britain’s immense contributions: a staunch, unmatched defender of free markets and civil liberties."

There was engagement of real people in the EU before people started electing UKIP type saboteurs to make their allegations of having no representative true. Still some decent people. In fact, the UK has very respected representatives/experts on Committees etc. And if people engaged in fishing wanted representation, they were never going to have the UK's voice heard or interests defended through Farage.

I suppose the UK always had theoretical sovereignty, i.e. it could have ignored EU laws at any time and left. But that is really beside the point because we didn't have the practical sovereignty that we actually exercise.

And whilst we might 'give up' 0.1% of our sovereignty to other organisations for mutually beneficial reasons, the EU was taking more and more and more of our practical democracy away. So much so that it was looking like we were eventually going to lose our identity as a country and become just a small region of the EU state. Going from electing 100% of our MP's to run our country to electing less than 10% of the MEPs that would run our country from a building in Brussels, enforced by a court in Luxembourg and probably policed by an army in another.

A catfight in the Conservative party that got out of hand

I think that from Cameron's point of view, this is true - I don't think he would have called the referendum of he had believed he could lose.

But in the bigger picture, this really isn't a true characterisation of Brexit. There are politicians and others who have devoted their entire careers to trying to leave the EU (All Out War by Tim Shipman is good on the background to the referendum).

And even if the referendum was an "accident", the outcome wasn't. There has been growing discontent with EU membership for years.

I do wonder if some of the anger and frustration at the referendum outcome is due to some people really believing that we have arrived where we are by a series of flukes and it is not really what the majority want. Its a slightly vicious circle, I know, as the same people then try to convince themselves that people who voted leave really didn't know what they were doing (it was a protest vote etc etc etc). Perhaps it might be easier for some to come to terms with it if they could first accept that we are not Brexiting because of an internal Tory squabble, but because it is what the majority want.

And even if the referendum was an "accident", the outcome wasn't. There has been growing discontent with EU membership for years

Agree with you there. If there had been a phased, negotiated, non racist peaceful plan to become 'independent' of EU, we wouldn't be in the current pickle. It could have been done and dusted quietly and without harming the economy and politics.

But it hasn't and it has, and leavers with very good reasons for leaving and remainers, stuck with no representatives, are vulnerable to those who can use a power vacuum for their own ends: Arron Banks and co.
And they don't have the best interests of either side at heart.

Arron Banks money, and Farages UKIP might have had an influence on getting a referendum. But now we are leaving the EU, I dont see them having any influence at all.

There has been growing discontent with EU membership for years.

Definitely debatable. This says not a lot of interest in the EU for years

Compare with last decade.

Being in the EU means the UK has to accept laws and policies which the people of the EU do not want. Freedom of Movement is an obvious example.

Which, funnily enough, appears to be almost the first thing that Theresa May has suggested we keep ...

Lurking Perhaps Theresa May, in suggesting a phased approach to freedom of movement, is trying to move us towards

a phased, negotiated, non racist peaceful plan to become 'independent' of EU so

we wouldn't be in the current pickle. It could have been done and dusted quietly and without harming the economy and politics

Perhaps we will end up with something that most people can find acceptable.

maizieD

Other data is available, eg

theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250

It's definitely not true that there has been 'growing discontent with EU membership for years' - unless you are referring to the small number of more 'religious' brexiters in ukip and within the Conservative party
(Assuming by 'growing' you mean 'growing by quite a lot').

This sounds like your 'narrating self' rather than your 'experiencing self' talking! Have a look at kahnneman's 'thinking fast and slow' - I think I referenced it up thread (or somewhere!). It's v interesting.

This sounds like your 'narrating self' rather than your 'experiencing self' talking! Have a look at kahnneman's 'thinking fast and slow' - I think I referenced it up thread (or somewhere!). It's v interesting

I've just ordered the Yoval Noah Harari book recommended (I think on this thread) and will get the Kahnemann, sounds good.

Would you care to give an outline of 'narrating self' v 'experiencing self' ?

Same polling organisation, BromptonOratory Interesting...

Different questions, though. Leave/Remain?, as opposed to 'Is it important?'

I dont think that information in relation to EU satisfaction is relevant. The questions are all bias, in that they are all collated in either a scenario where Brexit was thought impossible and laterally a background where a referendum was inevitable. So it doesn't uncover what people really thought/think about the EU.