The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandLady]

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Article 50 has been triggered (finally!).
Now we move onwards to the future 🍻

All welcome, as ever...

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I've tried to express support for that sort of thing before fakename, in fact even tentatively broached it last night but the resounding answer was No Compromise! from remainers.

I've regularly said that all I want to see initially is to Leave, even if that means single market for now - I always fully expected full extraction to take years & years.

Fake, Im not being argumentative over hard/soft issue. My position is and always has been the EU will dictate, not us.
Its always been an in/out position, the EU have never never faltered from that position, and therefore the only way to then 'negotiate' is to take them on.

Some one else used this phrase on MN, that says it better than me.
Brexit is not a menu that we can choose off. The EU time and time again keep telling us that, yet the remainers/soft option supporters refuse to listen.

"Labours approach to Brexit is free of jingoism and sabre rattling"

Shame the EU havent matched that perceived concilliatory stance. They will and must punish us for leaving. To not do so, will see the collapse of the EU.

We know that leavers will blame the EU when Brexit turns to shit. Brexit is a waste of time last night's results prove that. If the will of the people was hard Brexit the Tories would have won a landslide. Some self reflection from the hard Brexiteers wouldn't go a miss.

Charmageddon

That doesn't sound like compromise, it sounds like hard Brexit, just taking longer. I was thinking more a EEA style deal that still takes us out of the EU. A middle ground.

The longer Brexit takes the more it damages the economy.

Ghost, the pro brexit, no freedom of movement, no single market tory party took 13.6 million votes.
The pro brexit, no freedom of movement, no single market Labour party took 12.8

Lib dems, Greens took 2.8 but ukip took 500k. ( I wont break down the others)

The tory and labour results account for 83% of seats and are based on pro brexit, no freedom of movement, no single market.

Ghost, looking at those numbers, whose going to be dissappointed when a straight forward 'out', no freedom of movement and no access to the single market, is agreed?

Ive not checked which 29 Labour MPs these were, or if they kept their seats, but Corbyn told them to sling their hooks.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/11/labour-demand-corbyn-backs-post-brexit-membership-eu-single-market

checked now, in case any remainers were interested. Of the 29 Labour MPs who pressed to remain in the single market, only one has retired due to health issues, and the other 28 retained their seats last night.
At least thats 28 guaranteed to fight that corner......... plus the 35 SNP, 12 Lib Dems, 1 Green. There may of course have been newly elected Labour MPs last night who are pro single market, but theres credibility on manifesto promises if they start by undermining their leader. (You have to remember something like 2/3rds of labour constituencies voted leave).

Being generous, if backs are to the wall, which is the situation we are more than likely looking at due to the A50 ticking clock, and the EUs clear message that the clocks ticking and theyre not going to give any quarter, then to default to a straightforward 'out' position, out of the single market, out of the FOM, then parliament voting per manifesto (with the above exceptions in Labour) would approve it, 570 for approx 80 against.

Im not celebrating, as I think weve just witnessed the dumping of the best opportunity we had to avoid reverting to WT tariffs, and countering the ridiculous divorce bill the eu want to slap on us, but as every minute now ticks by, any sort of negotiation becomes less probable.

But hey ho, JC promised unicorns that he doesnt have to deliver. No one should be celebrating.

I'm not celebrating, as I think weve just witnessed the dumping of the best opportunity we had to avoid reverting to WT tariffs, and countering the ridiculous divorce bill the eu want to slap on us, but as every minute now ticks by, any sort of negotiation becomes less probable.

This is the Tories problem. They created the Brexit mess. May could have cracked on with hard Brexit she didn't need to call an election. May's hard Brexit stance will have alarmed even leave voters - hence no longer hard Brexit mandate. Brexit was a bad idea in June 2016 and it is a bad idea in June 2017. I and millions of others didn't vote for it. Its up to the Tories and the "will of the people" to sort it out. I still expect unicorns because thats what I was told Brexit would deliver.

Slight problem is that May is now at the mercy of the DUP and has to balance peace remaining in NI. May is seen as a laughing stock around the world - she was installed by the best party to deliver a good Brexit apparently.

Bottom line - I didn't vote Brexit or Tory and neither did millions of others. Its time for the "winners" to sort this mess out.

Its no good trying to deflect onto Corbyn and Labour all eyes are on the Tories and the oncoming internal spats as the EU looks on and laughs at the whole damn farce.

The tory and labour results account for 83% of seats and are based on pro brexit, no freedom of movement, no single market.

That rather misses the point that this election was nothing to do with Brexit so far as many voters were concerned, despite TM trying to position it that way. For me, it was about the decimation of the NHS, the underfunding of schools etc.

Any party leader who now tries to claim that voters voted in support of a hard Brexit will be on very thin ice.

Any party leader who now tries to claim that voters voted in support of a hard Brexit will be on very thin ice

Likewise anyone who now tries to claim that voters voted against a hard Brexit (or Brexit) will be on very thin ice.

Likewise anyone who now tries to claim that voters voted against a hard Brexit (or Brexit) will be on very thin ice.

You told Ruth Davidson that?

Ruth Davidson is to defy Theresa May’s plans for a hard Brexit and tear her Scottish party away from English control after the UK Tories’ disastrous General Election result.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/09/ruth-davidson-planning-scottish-tory-breakaway-challenges-theresa/

I would expect politicians to understand the basics of democracy.

"That rather misses the point that this election was nothing to do with Brexit so far as many voters were concerned, despite TM trying to position it that way. For me, it was about the decimation of the NHS, the underfunding of schools etc."

I absolutely agree with you. But Brexit is now quite rightly back in focus and every elected MP will have a say on it. Is that 'say' a parliamentary vote? Very very possibly, were in hung parliament territory.

I would expect politicians to understand the basics of democracy.

Perhaps you could remind the hard Brexiteer MP's who appear to have forgotten about the 48%. Also the right wing press about the rule of law, MP's about non binding advisory referendums etc.

"Perhaps you could remind the hard Brexiteer MP's who appear to have forgotten about the 48%"

Well labour didnt put any support for remain, or any request in their manifesto for a 2nd referendum, so the only party who indeed 'remembered' the 48% were the Lib Dems. Shame the 48% didnt support them.

The 48% don't exist anymore.

82% voted in support of Brexit on Thursday when they voted for parties that ran on Brexit manifestos.

At best, the 48% are now the 18%

May's Brexit election didn't exactly go to plan did it? If there were support for hard brexit the Tories would have won a landslide. No question the electorate has referendum fatigue - hence Lib Dems not making major gains. This election will be remembered for awakening the youth vote and the importance of saving public services from austerity.

The next step is to reconcile saving public services with a very messy and costly EU exit. A process that will be initially overseen by a PM clinging to power and now devoid of any credibility at home or abroad.

People have largely accepted Brexit will happen whether they like it or not. What type of Brexit we get is still up for debate. Everything to play for.

If May continues with the "citizens of nowhere", sabre rattling approach she will look even more stupid.

If there were support for hard brexit the Tories would have won a landslide

If you want to use that argument, I think you need to define hard Brexit.

82% voted for parties whose manifesto included leaving the single market and ending freedom of movement.

The 48% don't exist anymore. 82% voted in support of Brexit on Thursday when they voted for parties that ran on Brexit manifestos.

That's just plain daft. Labour did not run on 'a Brexit manifesto' any more than the Tories ran on a 'fox-hunting manifesto'. You are clutching at straws there.

Im not going to start guessing why anyone voted as they did, all Im pointing out is what they actually voted for. Remain, 2nd referendum, certainly didnt perform well yesterday. Go figure.

As I say its all to play for;

Lame duck PM.
Ruth Davidson flexing her muscles in a Scotland that voted to remain.
NI (voted remain) now on the agenda. Lets see May keep the DUP/NI electorate/Sinn Fein sweet.
Potential second election

Brexit will have been down on peoples priority lists when casting votes. Public services, anti austerity and an appallingly Tory campaign were key issues. The nationalistic fervor of last June has subsided. It will subside even more as the true Brexit picture becomes clear;

UK economy falls to bottom of EU growth league

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/08/uk-economy-falls-to-bottom-of-eu-growth-league

Clouds gather over UK economy as data points to lacklustre growth

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/09/clouds-gather-over-uk-economy-as-more-data-points-to-lacklustre-growth

Brexit is happening
Sadly
So for me the ge was about the nhs, education and austerity

"Labour did not run on 'a Brexit manifesto' any more than the Tories ran on a 'fox-hunting manifesto"

But they did. The issue that possibly most voters voted on social domestic policies doesnt ignore the Brexit or Fox Hunting policies.

You cant start cherry picking the bits you like, and putting a cross in the box saying, Im voting for this bit of what your standing for, but not voting for that bit. So can I be classed as a half? and my other half vote goes to Lib Dems? Labour went the way it did on their manifesto, because 2/3rds of Labour constituents voted leave. They had to reflect that.