Westministenders: Danger of "accidental" Brexit (whoops !) ?

[BigChocFrenzy]

i.e. Brexit without a deal - NOT intentionally so - due to UK govt incompetence and mutual UK/EU misunderstandings

The govt is proceeding from abysmal ignorance on a Brexit journey which may blunder into disaster.

Prominent Leave campaigner Richard North:

"The UK Government's narrative seems to rest on the belief that the EU will cave in under pressure, and is thus giving every sign that it is prepared to push negotiations to the wire.

If, on the other hand, the EU are determined not to budge, especially as, with their own White Paper on "The Future of Europe" triggering internal discussions unrelated to Brexit, they are not necessarily fully focused on the "British problem".

As a result, we could end up with an "accidental Brexit",
where the UK negotiators overplay their hand, ending up in the UK leaving without an agreement, forcing it to rely on WTO rules.

Most likely, it will take very little to convince the EU that Mrs May is bluffing – as the effect of the WTO option is likely to be disastrous for the UK economy.

We could thus have each side misreading each other, making the accidental Brexit all the more likely."

www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86395

I can see a lot more "leaks" like this....

The WM Government doesn't get to control the information that is disseminated.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/29/first-eu-response-to-article-50-takes-tough-line-on-transitional-deal?CMP=sharebtntw

There is not and never has been any such thing as EU citizenship. The UK is one of a number of countries which permits its citizens to retain their nationality when becoming a citizen of another country. This is not the case for all other EU countries. The UK does not require citizens of other countries to renounce their citizenship when becoming UK citizens. Again this is not the case for all other EU countries.

I had my DD1 outside the UK and have a dual national DH and felt decidedly disenfranchised when residing outside the UK as an expat. I fully sympathise and support the drive to secure the position of EU Nationals in the UK but I find it a bit baffling that others have moved countries, bought property, married and had children without ever considering their status - FoM to work is just that.

I'm afraid the Maastricht treaty disagrees with you.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Union

how I'm sorry but you do NOT have a Scottish nationality because Scotland is nit a country.
The only country there is is the uk, the only nationality is British

It is the same with being European btw.
Being European is not a nationality, and a European passport doesn't exist. You have a french, German passport highlighting that these countries are part of the biggest association of countries, Europe.

Xpost
The nationality is still the one of your country. Not being European.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-keep-european-citizenship-free-movement-passport-article-50-european-parliament-leaked-a7656281.html

So it seems that Parliament think Brits should keep all the good bits coming from having the European citizenship (NOT nationality).

If I was them I would be very worried to see a real exodus of bits to the EU (aka the people who are well trained and that the country needs, not just the young as this article mentions)
But I suppose this would calm some people as it would allow them to still use the fast lane when gong through immigration... or to go and study in the EU. Or solve the issue of Brits living in the EU.

greenpeppers
You are wrong. I was born in NI. The GFA specifically allows me to be born in Britain but to have Irish nationality. So for a UK born resident there is NOT only British nationality.

Green try that line at Murrayfield the next time they're all belting out Flower of Scotland at full volume , although of course you are right.

You just explained much more succinctly than me the difference between Indyref and EUref and the importance of the distinction. I bet I will wait a very long time for NS or anyone else to explain it as well, especially since the SNPs and the Greens just granted voting rights to non-UK citizens over my future citizenship.

Drunken I did distinguish the Irish and N Irish position earlier and I presume Green was following on from that. There was no clear discussion of this issue in relation to Scotland in Indyref1.

Non UK citizens getting to decide our future. How outrageous. Its a whole new thing of course, given its never happened before. Oh no, hang on. It happened 9 months ago

Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
Faisal Islam Retweeted AFP news agency
Not a great surprise...but not great progress either

AFP news agency @AFP
#BREAKING Merkel rejects May's call for parallel talks on EU-UK ties

That cow, Merkel. She's administering a punishment beating determined to make life difficult for us.

(((Angela)))

No actually Hashi as "EU citizenship rights" only confer local election voting rights non-UK citizens did not get a vote in the EUref on UK membership of the EU but the Scottish Parliament conferred voting rights based on 3 months residency (same as for council elections) partly because, as Green points out there is no such thing as a Scottish citizen.

Non-UK EU citizens living in the UK have not lost any rights which were not contingent on the UK's continuing membership of the EU. They have always had the option to choose to become UK Citizens after work and residency conditions were met.

That cow, Merkel. She's determined to make life difficult for us.

Or she's demonstrating by example how leaders are supposed to look after the interests of all their citizens ?

Potayto, potarto ....

"I'm afraid the Maastricht Treaty disagrees with you."

So does the UK Government:

https://www.gov.uk/eea-registration-certificate

UK - we want talks in parallel
EU - that's not going to happen
UK - I don't think you understand, we want this
EU - its really not going to happen
UK - Ok, as you don't understand we're going to put it in writing
EU - still not going to happen

howabout Except for all the Irish and Commonwealth citizens who managed to vote in the EU referendum. Or have we retaken the empire already?

Actually on this Greenpeppers, I'll have to disagree with you and agree with Howabout.

Scotland is a country, it is just yet not a sovereign state. So you can be Scottish. The sovereign state of the UK is a union of 4 countries (well, 2 countries, a principality and 6 counties ). There is technically no such nationality as British - I will remain British even if when Scotland becomes independent as Scotland is part of the same island of (Great aka Big) Britain. Our nationality comes from being citizens of the United Kingdom. It is perhaps telling that no adjective for UK-ish was ever developed.

But I'd say to Howabout that the SNP/Nicola Sturgeon will not be the ones depriving her of her UK citizenship. If/When Scotland becomes independent, it will be because the Scottish people have voted for it. Don't want it, don't vote for it. Simples. That's the choice for the Scottish electorate.

As I recall, last time round, the Scottish Government was quite happy for people to have dual citizenship. What they couldn't do was guarantee that rUK would allow dual citizenship - but pointed out that as a norm, the UK permitted dual citizenship so not to allow Scots that right would be purely vindictive. This was how the citizenship in Ireland was managed when it became a free state - which is why so many people who have Irish roots are claiming their Irish passports.

howabout - you are wrong!

Some non Uk citizens were allowed to vote in the EU referendum: Irish and Commonwealth citizens residing in the UK were allowed to vote.

crossposted with Hashi

They didn't even have to be resident fickle, they just had to have been registered to vote in general elections at some point in the previous 15 years.

Fickle that is because they have residual UK citizenship rights. Are people generally not aware of who is entitled to vote in general elections, because for simplicity that was what was used?

Pretty the Irish solution works for me, although I prefer a Federal UK, so at least I have the potential of restraining the neighbours at Westminster. However, it is not a given and I do not think the issues were clearly aired last time round.

Sad day

Different media source... in English too.

www.lefigaro.fr/international/2017/03/29/01003-20170329LIVWWW00105-royaume-uni-brexit-ue-theresa-may-grande-bretagne-londres-europe-angleterre.php