Westministenders: Danger of "accidental" Brexit (whoops !) ?

[BigChocFrenzy]

i.e. Brexit without a deal - NOT intentionally so - due to UK govt incompetence and mutual UK/EU misunderstandings

The govt is proceeding from abysmal ignorance on a Brexit journey which may blunder into disaster.

Prominent Leave campaigner Richard North:

"The UK Government's narrative seems to rest on the belief that the EU will cave in under pressure, and is thus giving every sign that it is prepared to push negotiations to the wire.

If, on the other hand, the EU are determined not to budge, especially as, with their own White Paper on "The Future of Europe" triggering internal discussions unrelated to Brexit, they are not necessarily fully focused on the "British problem".

As a result, we could end up with an "accidental Brexit",
where the UK negotiators overplay their hand, ending up in the UK leaving without an agreement, forcing it to rely on WTO rules.

Most likely, it will take very little to convince the EU that Mrs May is bluffing – as the effect of the WTO option is likely to be disastrous for the UK economy.

We could thus have each side misreading each other, making the accidental Brexit all the more likely."

www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86395

I don't get it. Presumably foreign workers are subject to minimum wage legislation, so surely Pret can afford to pay UK people the same amount.

It's not that Pret are opening their doors and seeing an empty square. It's that Pret are opening their doors, and no one in the square wants to work there. The same problem farmers are/will face.

For every story about someone who has applied for 1,000 and gotten nowhere, you will find a story about an employer who has been looking for a year to fill a vacancy or vacancies.

And where the truth of the matter is, no one knows ...

I think it's what they say when they can't say anything else about them. If I did something they'd make a point that I was a dual national or ignore the dual and call me Irish. It's a disassociation thing.

On my way to the march. May run into some of you there. I have foolishly forgotten to wear something identifying like an mn scarf or a #keepikeamearballstarifffree placard. I told my somewhat bewildered dc that in years to come when their dc ask how we could just let our government use people as a bargaining resource I wanted them to be able to say 'granny didn't, she was there letting her disapproval be known'

I agree with math
'British born' is a Way to differentiate people who are 'really british' (one assumes born in Britain from British parents) compare to those who are 'just' British (i.e. They have been naturalised)

The discussion here isn't about realities such as the one misti is highlighting. It's about making a difference between people who are 'truly' British people and people who aren't.
E.g. I'm sure that tabloids would have no issue highlighting someone who is British but has been naturalised or was born in another country/lived abroad as a child to say that yes they were British but didn't really have British values because of their personal history.
Much harder to accept when this is about one person whose parents are British, has always lived in Britain and therefore is supposed to have British values.
And yes it is also coming back to the issue of immigration - can they ever assimilate and have British values etc....

Math selected one bullet point from my post, completely devoid of context.

Here was what I actually said re 'British born' wrt this^^ particular situation:

^And May normalises 'British born' over 'British' to suggest there is a difference. All part of the same thing.

They're not the same thing though, RTB.
As you said, language matters and the nuances make a difference.

If May had said 'British' this would have opened up the assumptions of the twats to pontificate: "ah, so probably an immigrant who's come over here & got a passport"

As prettybird said:
"I'm naturalised British not "British born"."

What matters about saying 'British born' is that it leaves no doubt that the terrorist was entirely British: born, bred and nurtured.

It matters (imo) to point this out clearly:
Terrorists are not all
Terrorists are not all from
Terrorists are not British but^^ originally from .

Terrorists can be British born too.
They are not always 'other'.^

I am not at all bothered about being disagreed with etc, but it is disingenuous to obfuscate the overall intent of my post, to make it appear that I meant something different.

Lol MO4D
Thanks!
(Also thanks to MsHoolie & Pretty too for their nice comments yesterday ).

I hope the weather stays nice for the march today, for everyone going.

All who are going to the March today, I hope the day goes well and the turnout is huge. I was supposed to go to the events in Rome today but due to family commitments I need to be home, which is a shame as it would have been great to go.
I hope the weather holds out for you all.

Eeeeoow The Pret initiative is just one amongst many in the hospitality industry designed to encourage young people in Britain to regard hospitality as a serious career choice. It is not about recruiting cheap labour, it is just a week long work experience. The problem is that hotels, restaurants etc. are not getting many, if any, any applications from these young people, even where they are good employers who offer the training and career structure, the programme on the Mandarin Oriental Hyde Park recently made the same point. They are trying to address structural issues.

I also appreciated Semi's point, but I think both sides of the argument are true. In that "British born" does emphasise that the incident cannot be used by racists like Farage, Banks etc. who as Marina pointed out in her Guardian article had to shift lanes pretty quickly in the lies they were peddling in the UK, and especially in terms of the porky pie, the were telling in the US, from the problem being immigration to "multiculturalism". The problem is that "British born" does allow them still to use that argument, it reinforces the perception that there are grades of "Britishness" and that skin colour /ethnicity are relevant factors. Jo Cox's killer was a terrorist but there was little dwelling on his "grade" of Britishness.

Not sure what May could have done though, it was right to close down the anti immigrant rhetoric. I actually thought her words in her statement reasonably well judged and went beyond the usual homilies. She isn't a charismatic speaker but then Farage is and I would rather see content that reflects decent values than charisma quite honestly.......

Single British citizenship is just British.
This most recent Islamic terrrorist shares the same British citizenship as the far right terrorist who murdered Jo Cox
Their victims are dead, regardless of the terrorist's skin colour or brand of Sky Fairy

Sometimes, "British, born in xxxx" is relevant.
It is very unfortunate - but the price we pay for a free press - that the Hate Mail & others can exploit those facts for politics and profit.

"British born" is fair enough for a foreign national.
For dual nationality, it may be uncomfortable, but it is a relevant fact to state both nationalities

Semi supports Leave
Most of us think Brexit will turn out much worse than she expects.
However, even if that is the case, many prominent professional politicians and journalists made the same assessment she did.
Not unreasonable to trust their predictions, at least pre-ref.

MN has a vociferous but small subset of Brexit posters who make vile posts about E27 citizens and also Muslims, echoing Katy Hate articles.
They are identifiable because they cheer on the far right in Europe and the USA, i.e. they are at least fascist sympathisers
They also tend to be social darwinists, to despise the poor & vulnerable, even Brits on the "benefit threads".
All the while castigating the "liberal elite" values.

semi clearly does not share their values.
Most of the 52% don't either.
So it's unfair and unhelpful to lump the majority with their vile far right fringe, that now dares come into the open.

Carswell quits UKIP www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/25/ukips-only-mp-douglas-carswell-quits-party

Ron that's all as maybe, but what is their objection to paying people?

It is for schoolchildren, it is the norm for them to do a weeks work experience in the summer holidays, it is difficult for families without connections to find placements and obviously in a week they will require more resources than they will contribute. The idea is to ultimately attract them into paid positions. This is not exploitation of job seekers.

Semi - you're twisting things in the same way that you're suggesting others do here. I don't think you're a serial porky teller, but to suggest that there are no smug, gloaty posts on the Brexit Arms threads (let alone some of the others) is not doing you any favours. I do appreciate that you are one of the few Leavers to participate in actual discussion (not that all your posts contribute an awful lot, but then neither do a lot of mine).

Semi - you're twisting things in the same way that you're suggesting others do here

No.
You said I was "here with 'alternative facts' again...".

That is a clear statement that I post things I know not to be true often.

This is not true, hence I asked you to elaborate.

Regardless, thank you for elaborating.

Apologies if it came out the wrong way - my levity doesn't always translate.

Maybe I should use more emoticons...

politicalscrapbook.net/2017/03/tory-mp-im-hated-by-my-twitter-followers/#more-62816
TORY MP: I’M “HATED” BY MY TWITTER FOLLOWERS

Poor little sexist snowflake...

Altogether now . Awww poor love.

Matt Haig @MattHaig1
UKIP's only MP is quitting. So the Green Party who actually have an MP who is not quitting will get way more media coverage. Right?

The Lib Dems have a new 404 page:

www.libdems.org.uk/UKIPhuih8

Semi I agree with the fact it's a nice way to highlight that terrorists ARE British (as in 'properly british') and it can be a nice way to show that actual lay terrorists can be from whatever other country BUT they can also be from the country they are spreading terror in.
Actually it has been the case in cases....

BUT I also agree it opens the doors in making a hierarchy of britshness. I have an issue with being 'naturalised British' for example. Because it, for me, it assumes that you have the British citizenship but you aren't fully British. You should be British or not British iyswim.
After all, as it has been said by many people on MN, getting the citizenship is a 'sign of your commitment to the country' so it should be celebrated rather than looked at as still be lesser than iyswim.
I'm also very aware that my dcs have a duel citizenship by birth. They ARE British born and bred. But they are also 'other'. And that is something that is coming out in the relationship with their peers. They are never seen as 'british' or fully 'british'.
This is a dangerous situation to be in IMO and insisting that strongly on it is ALSI validating that situation iyswim.

Finally, I have to say, I'm not sure what is the point about insisting on so and so is a Leaver and so no so is a REmainer.
There are so many differences between Remainers (within that group)!and Leavers (within the group again) that TBH i don't think it brings anything to the discussion.
But it does bring knee jerk reactions that are more divisive than constructive.
Judging comments on their validity and whether you agree/disagree/bring another way to look at things sounds more ... constructive?

RTB I love that new page

Eeeeoow The Pret initiative is just one amongst many in the hospitality industry designed to encourage young people in Britain to regard hospitality as a serious career choice. It is not about recruiting cheap labour, it is just a week long work experience. The problem is that hotels, restaurants etc. are not getting many, if any, any applications from these young people, even where they are good employers who offer the training and career structure, the programme on the Mandarin Oriental Hyde Park recently made the same point. They are trying to address structural issues.

They're not trying very hard, if they are doing it on the cheap (not paying people). If work is being done it should be paid - full stop.

hierarchy of Britishness

That's clearly the aim of "british born" (born British but not really British, as in "not pale enough").

OTOH the reality is that there IS a hierarchy of Britishness - my Britishness is different from that of my best friend (born stateless) or my kids' Britishness (they were born British but can't transmit their Britishness to their own kids). That's the reality of nationality law.

misti why can't they give their British citizenship to their own dcs?
Just curious.