Westministenders: Danger of "accidental" Brexit (whoops !) ?

[BigChocFrenzy]

i.e. Brexit without a deal - NOT intentionally so - due to UK govt incompetence and mutual UK/EU misunderstandings

The govt is proceeding from abysmal ignorance on a Brexit journey which may blunder into disaster.

Prominent Leave campaigner Richard North:

"The UK Government's narrative seems to rest on the belief that the EU will cave in under pressure, and is thus giving every sign that it is prepared to push negotiations to the wire.

If, on the other hand, the EU are determined not to budge, especially as, with their own White Paper on "The Future of Europe" triggering internal discussions unrelated to Brexit, they are not necessarily fully focused on the "British problem".

As a result, we could end up with an "accidental Brexit",
where the UK negotiators overplay their hand, ending up in the UK leaving without an agreement, forcing it to rely on WTO rules.

Most likely, it will take very little to convince the EU that Mrs May is bluffing – as the effect of the WTO option is likely to be disastrous for the UK economy.

We could thus have each side misreading each other, making the accidental Brexit all the more likely."

www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86395

I didn't stay for the rally but this from Nick Clegg pretty much nails how I (and lots of other Westminstenders) feel:

"Like many of you I was profoundly saddened by the outcome of the referendum but that sadness has given way to a perpetual sense of anger about the choices that Theresa May and her government have taken since.

“It was a choice to pull us out of the customs union, it was a choice to embark on that demeaning bout of transatlantic obsequiousness,” Clegg explains, as he accuses the prime minister of “threatening to turn our country into a bargain basement cowboy economy”.^

Misti If they were doing work and being exploited I would totally agree but practically every school state or private has some sort of scheme to encourage all their 16 year olds to do worm experience for a week in the holidays. There must be literally millions of them spending a week in banks, accountancy firms, vet surgeries (one had the treat of watching my dog have a blood test a couple of days ago), gyms, swimming pools, hospitals, shops etcher. Etc. It is one of those parental rites of passage motivating them to find some relevant useful work experience and though all the young people I know have done it I have only ever known the official schemes designed to attract the brightest into their graduate schemes to pay (and they are also the only ones who have them carry out anything you could describe as work, and then it is in the shape of training exercises. Sometimes it is a charm offensive designed to attract recruits which is where Lret are coming from.Mostly it is doing parents and careers departments a favour. Pret are paying now but only because they see a PR opportunity. I doubt there will be any increase in Year 11 worm experience being paid by other organisations.

On my phone, autocorrect not me devaluing the work of 16 year olds....

Lala I did stay and whilst there was a string of good speakers Lammy and Clegg really galvanised a crowd that by then had dwindled. Of course most of what everyone said was just the bleeding obvious we post on here all the time. A couple of the case stories of citizens of the EU living here actually made me cry especially the Italian SAHM whose husband was thinking of sending the medals from his 17 year RAF career back (the 10 Moves whilst in the RAF being part of the reason she was a SAHM ).

I caught snippets of the rally in between trying to pee and find food! Loved David Lammy, I was heading off as he came on and he made me stop. The lady from Remain in Spain was good to. Sadly a bit preaching to the converted on, as ron said, stuff we've known for ages.

Managed to meet Tim Farron briefly at the start too which would have been less embarrassing if I hadn't greeted him like he was one of my neighbours . Must start remembering that because people are in my house via tv a lot doesn't mean I know them 😂

Hashi Don't worry I did that to one of the doctors off Casualty at the local swimming pool, convinced she was someone I knew well. I don't even watch Casualty so it took a few lanes to suddenly realise how cringe worthy my greeting was!

GreenPeppers Most forms that require you to "prove your Britishness" if you will, go back to the nationality and place of birth of your grandparents I believe. I may be wrong.

The march sound great. Thank you to all those who went.

elena

Thats dumb

I have no idea who my grandfather is...how would i prove it

I'm a bit t loss too.
When we got DC passport, it asked about DH but not about his parents.
And obviously people who have been naturalised will never be able to prove that their grand parents are British. But they will still pass on their British citizenship to their dcs.

How and whether you can pass on your citizenship depends on the type of British nationality you have. The child of a british national is not necessarily british; my children have the sort of nationality that can't be passed on. Their kids (my grandchildren) will be british only if they are born in the UK, if the other parent is British, or if the child would otherwise be stateless.

It is dumb. I am glad I can add some new horror to the forum:

From the passport application guidance booklet:
If both parents were born after 31 December 1982, or were both born outside the UK, please give the following details in section 8 of the application form. Either:
• the full name, town, country of birth and date of marriage of your mother’s or parent 1’s parents and your father’s or parent 2’s parents, or
• details of your parents’ claim to British nationality.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/566455/Applying_for_your_Passport_Oct_2016.pdf page 6

Its not going to affect me....yet

But its still fucking dumb

In practical terms it means that if you are younger, even your citizenship is worth less than for older generations. Just saying. I am old and not British-born, so it does not affect me.

It affects so many younger people now. Maybe we all all be citizens of nowhere

This article is fascinating on what the government have promised Nissan: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39387439

Brexit and Farming today

Agribusiness
Higher food costs
Lack of regulatory bodies (re: food)
Genetically modified food
Tim Martin interview

That article is interesting MissMoon. All the stars are aligned at the moment with the devaluation of sterling and UK still in the EU. I wonder what will happen after Brexit? If sterling goes down even more, Nissan would like that and staff would be cheap. However, the tariffs may kick in to erode a bit of that. More critically, non tariff barriers may just make everything more difficult. On the other hand, the future may be hunky dory.

If someone say that someone is British born or French born, I would think they were first generation. Distinguishing them as having droit de sol, rather than droit du sang. That is just my take, though.

Did anyone see Andrew Neil with Iain Wright. The show was dreadful on Neil's side. They did an article on Slovakia, especially car manufacturing. Neil kept referring to it as Slovenia. Eventually someone must have shouted in his earpiece as he eventually said Slovakia. It is one of those countries over there anyway, what is the difference!

Iain Wright was quite good. He had a really good calm manner as well. When he said the UK didn't do all they could, even within state rules. Neil just sniggered with a sneery 'we don't cheat like those foreigners' type of remark. But that is not what the guy was saying. Neil wasn't interested or able to identify good questions. Maybe he didn't want wright to expand on how the UK gov't was maybe able to do things they claimed the EU prevented them from doing. It would have been interesting to hear Wright expand and explain that remark.

One of his questions ran along the lines of 'will it be very good or just good when we leave'. Wright was straight in saying no deal is worse than having at least something in place for trade.

As an aside, how on earth could anyone say the BBC is just critical of brexit. One show I just had to turn off. It had Isabel Oakeshott in studio, a picture of Farage on a screen and they were talking about Arron Banks being represented in a movie about Brexit. I wondered who would play Jo Cox.

You know the MP who was given a place in the privy council as he gave first aid to the policeman? It reminds me of the extremely brave 77 year old man who got out of his car and went over to help Jo Cox even in the face of a knife wielding attacker and was stabbed himself in the process. I hope he was suitable honoured.

droit du sol

In practical terms it means that if you are younger, even your citizenship is worth less than for older generations. Just saying.

I think the date on the passport application isn't an arbitrary date tbh, or deliberately discriminatory against young people - it ties in with the changes to British Citizenship from the 1981 nationality act, where jus soli was ended.

(The act was introduced initially by Labour, ratified by Tories, so a cross party thing).

SemiPermanent:
What matters about saying 'British born' is that it leaves no doubt that the terrorist was entirely British: born, bred and nurtured.

So why not say 'British' and leave it at that?

'British' would actually convey much better the idea that the terrorist was 'born, bred and nurtured' in Britain, and it would have the advantage of not implying that there are 'British' people and then that other group called 'British born' who are not quite as British.

As you yourself say, language matters. If your aim is to promote the idea that there are 'them' and 'us' then 'British born' has a lot going for it. As soon as you introduce a distinction, people will run with it.

Went on the march with family and friends. It was a lovely, friendly, relaxed atmosphere: very respectful towards the police officers in view of Wednesday's events. The railings of the Commons were covered with blue and yellow flowers woven in. All ages of people there, with mostly personally-made, witty placards. No sign of any hard left or right political organisations. I thought the speeches were good; I liked Clegg and Campbell, and David Lammy was brilliant. There was a definite thread in the speeches that it's not too late to fight a hard Brexit, and that we must hold the government to account on all the promises that were made. Also everyone asking 'what good is going to come out of Brexit?' Nobody seems to know.

Went on the march with family and friends. It was a lovely, friendly, relaxed atmosphere: very respectful towards the police officers in view of Wednesday's events. The railings of the Commons were covered with blue and yellow flowers woven in. All ages of people there, with mostly personally-made, witty placards. No sign of any hard left or right political organisations. I thought the speeches were good; I liked Clegg and Campbell, and David Lammy was brilliant. There was a definite thread in the speeches that it's not too late to fight a hard Brexit, and that we must hold the government to account on all the promises that were made. Also everyone asking 'what good is going to come out of Brexit?' Nobody seems to know.

Is it satire ? Is it history ? Or is it a prediction ?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory_Laws

The Tory Citizenship Law proposed that only those of British or related blood were eligible to be British citizens; the remainder were classed as state subjects, without citizenship rights.

When you've read that, read this to see where I may have got the idea ....

lh I've just got a vision of Malfoy talking about muggles and halfbloods

The citizenship thing is odd. I know someone who through his own lack of volition is not on his eldest dcs birth certs. Their dm is French. Those kids spent their lives here, schooled here, etc and never left Britain even for a holiday. It wasn't until the eldest wanted to go on a school trip they went to apply for a passport and discovered the dc weren't entitled to British citizenship. The dc now have French passports through their dm. Largely they felt it didn't matter as it's all eu. I assume the now adult dc will need to take a citizenship test to stay (not sure if they'd have the 5years right to perm residence through self sufficiency yet)