The Brexit Arms A50 Celebration Thread

[BrexitArmsLandLady]

Welcome all - Leavers & Remainers
Article 50 being triggered next week, exciting times ahead.

Thanks to SurferJet for running the pub thus far! You're a diamond 💎 💎

Cheers 🍻
Brexit Ahoy! 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧

Well, I thought it was a funny comment.

First someone posts that people are insulting leave voters.

Then someone posts that remain voters will have to commit suicide.

Then someone says 'Gosh, that is so funny about remain voters committing suicide.'

OK, ironic as well.

Surely it would be hypocritical if Rorty had said all of that?

You do realise we're not all the same person, surely?

We are not all plugged into a hive mind.

We are not the Borg.

Leavers (as Remainers) are a group of individuals, every individual bound only by one thing: where we put our cross on the ballot paper.

Just as there is a whole range of opinions between "ban all immigration" and "completely unlimited global immigration", not all remainers have been trying to "stop Brexit." Some of us think it is a huge mistake, but have reconciled ourselves to the fact it is happening and just wished that the process could be carried out in a competent, economically sensible way that destroys as few lives as possible. Expressing dismay at the way things are headed is not being "negative" "unpatriotic" or "undemocratic", despite what some would have us believe.

Hopefully, once A50 is triggered, criticism of the way the government is handling Brexit will become more acceptable to leavers.

Of course, if it does all got to shit, not everyone will stick around to suffer the consequences:
uk.businessinsider.com/nigel-farage-will-leave-britain-if-brexit-is-a-disaster-2017-3

Would that be the opposite of a "Brain Drain"?

I'm sure our collective brain power may exponentially increase Squishy, as some people leave

Nick Griffin's intended departure is to be celebrated, for example.

If I eat all the Brexit cake tomorrow will I still look like 7 of 9?

Maybe we should direct mockery only at those who stand for office? It does sort of go with the territory for those guys.

but not at each other, it's too bloody raw

Caill. . The difference is that someone born here will have usually paid all their working life towards services they receive even when they can't pay at the present time. Paying income tax and NI for a few months pays little towards the NHS infrastructure which has taken decades to form. And there just aren't enough houses in certain areas, whether you are paying or not. A few hundred pounds in income tax won't build hundreds of additional houses.

I thing Tony Blair was crazy not to cap immigration. And no, I don't think it's wrong to expand the EU. It benefits everyone. The FoM is a poorly thought out rule that should have been reformed on expansion. When it was the cosy little common market living standards were standard throughout. With a shift away from this it was mad to maintain a faulty system. That was the fault, not expansion.

Smash. It is a terrifying time I agree with the negotiations but I'm hoping a deal can be struck that's in everyone's interest. Of course we'll have to pay, but if the benefits outweigh the cost, so be it.

I'm sure we will always have a minority of rabid Leavers on the far right yes you Farage et al but if most Leavers are nearer the centrists then everyone should be happy.

Does that make me a naive, stupid optimist? 😀

We are not all plugged into a hive mind

We are not the Borg

Leavers (as Remainers) are a group of individuals, every individual bound only by one thing: where we put our cross on the ballot paper

We'll all get so much further when everyone can grasp this.

but not at each other, it's too bloody raw

Have a inductionhob

I'm expecting it to be quiet on here tomorrow as obviously many Remainers will have to fall on their swords and commit hara kiri at their failure to turn back the tide

I proper lol'd at that Rorty

Sadly, I expect the opposite

Going on the precedent set by reactions to previous milestones on the Brexit journey, I fully expect a deluge of the usual suspects coming onto this thread to use MN Leavers as their personal whipping boys

Ok, last flog at it.

The comment that it was Leavers who were being abused (by remain posters, presumably) is there. Ironic and hypocritical considering reaction to the hari kari comment.

The comment that remain posters mightn't be posting tomorrow as they will have to commit hari-kari (suicide). This is venemous and directed at just ordinary posters.

Then how funny that comment about the remainers committing hari kari is.

So it is all there, and on a single post, so no Borg needed.

Maybe I'm just taken aback as I haven't been on the thread before.

I'm not going to post it again. Strike through was meant to be italics.

well it's said now.

god knows there's no monopoly on feeling aggrieved.

thanks for the offer of wine. I think I'll be in the quiet corner tomorrow.

By the way people have been lovely about leaving us alone in the quiet corner over the past week or two and this is appreciated.

Caill. . The difference is that someone born here will have usually paid all their working life towards services they receive even when they can't pay at the present time

I do get your point, but I'm not completely sure I entirely agree with it. I don't think most people move to another country to work at the end of their working life. Brits on the Costa excepted. I think EU migrants, on the whole, tend to be younger and well educated.

Take for example a scientist who moves to the UK to work. They may be in their 20's. A similar professional born in the UK will not have paid vast sums of money (if any really, if they have been in full time education) into the system at that age. In fact, the UK will have saved on their education costs. That will be a gift from their country of origin.

As for housing and school places. The policies of the UK gov't to sell off social housing and not replace it or even ring fence the money for other social housing projects does not help. There seems to be some sort of failure at policy and planning. State and council level. Most people are vying for private property. To rent or buy. With housing benefit competing against market rates.

School places, I am at a loss as to why there is seemingly such a dearth. If said professional in 20's moves to UK and has child in 30's, they certainly put as much into the kitty as an equivalent Brit and if the child is born in UK, the state knows there needs to be provision 5 years later. Gov't policies of selling school property in the past and giving more money to academies and free schools than council run state is an issue. Councils don't seem to be able to set up new state schools and this is a problem as they are the ones who are legally responsible for ensuring there are enough school places for all children.

Cailleach your characterisation of the typical EU migrant probably matches the facts up to 2004 but in the last 10 years the majority have been at the low wage end of the scale. This is also the period when migration got beyond the tens of thousands. The Bank of England report on the effect on wages has stats n stuff.

Just as there is a whole range of opinions between "ban all immigration" and "completely unlimited global immigration", not all remainers have been trying to "stop Brexit." Some of us think it is a huge mistake, but have reconciled ourselves to the fact it is happening and just wished that the process could be carried out in a competent, economically sensible way that destroys as few lives as possible. Expressing dismay at the way things are headed is not being "negative" "unpatriotic" or "undemocratic", despite what some would have us believe.

Totally agree, squishy. I've been waiting in vain to hear something I could 'get behind', but all you get is flannel. I really do think that a lot of 'middle ground' people would be feeling much more optimistic if we had not been subjected to TM, DD, LF et al's absolute drivel for 9 months. Not to mention the crap we've read on some of the MN threads.

Your other points about housing and schooling are well made. However on the other side of the argument UK house prices were flat or falling throughout the 90s and there was an oversupply of school places due to the aftermath of the babyboom. The housing supply shortage is estimated at an underbuild of 200k per year since then. This broadly matches the net migration figures although there is some contribution from formation of smaller households.

There has been a huge failure in planning but this is hardly surprising since Blair did not anticipate the UK would become the destination of choice and Cameron kept on pretending the numbers were on track to be back in the tens of thousands per year, as did Clegg in coalition.

I also agree with squishy

Didn't they close/merge schools many schools in the 90's, due to a dip in the birth rate? I might be misremembering, but I remember protests against school closures etc being a bit of a thing when I was younger.
Terribly short sighted.
And falling house prices does not necessarily mean that the need for housing was falling - the ability to afford and get a mortgage will depress prices even when the supply is inadequate.

Most eu migrants are not scientists, but plumbers, builders, hotel and catering staff and various other mid tech occupations. What you appeared to say was that everyone was on an equal footing if they were in work or out of it. DB has worked for 20 years so surely hes paid more into the system than a migrant worker from the EU who's been here 3 months and is working, yet you're saying they have equal entitlement to schooling, health etc? I know they do in actuality but morally DB (to me) has a better case.

I have no issue with this except where resources are stretched. If schools are failing (and they are) because they have 20 different languages to manage surely more resources are being diverted into those areas? Which of course means other areas like SN go short. As a country shouldn't we at least ensure children born here aren't failed by the system before we accept uncontrolled immigration from non English speaking countries.

I know all areas are being underfunded but that's not changing any time soon so we just have to live with it. I feel that managing resources is a legitimate argument for managing immigration better.

Olympia , I wonder if there are any studies on what EU workers are mostly employed in. It is not easy to get accurate figures, I believe, as there is no central system of registration. Some other countries would have ID cards. Those occupations you mention are high profile because the person on the street would be exposed to them more often. People in other occupations, Science and banking (just for example) may have less contact with the general public, so you wouldn't come across them as much. This could alter how we personally gauge where most EU migrants work.

I didn't compare someone in work with someone who isn't working. There should be no issue with someone from the EU who is unemployed or not self sufficient with health insurance after 3 months anyway. The UK gov't always had the right to remove people from the country in that case. They just don't choose to do it.

I was comparing like with like. I don't know the numbers of people from the EU who arrive in the UK with families. The thing is health and education is free to all resident in the UK. The EU has a reciprocal arrangement in all the other EU states. Even just visiting, hence the EHIC. I don't know about the moral relativism of someone being more entitled to services if they have paid in more.

I doubt if there is a need for school resources to deal with children who are monoglot in one of a variety of 20 different European languages. Among my EU acquaintances, there are Children at the Lycee and the German School. Independent school enrolment high as well. Anecdotal, but they aren't even in the state school system. The non European immigration has never gone down even though May was in charge for aeons. In fact, Leadsom said the UK could replace EU nurses with south east asian nurses. So, the variety of foreign languages may increase if anything. But the referendum was only about the EU, so I guess that is irrelevant.

I really do hope both education and health services do see the increase in funding that people think EU nationals and membership (not taking into account the benefits) are eating up. Trouble is , if someone doesn't arrive to replace their tax payments, there will be less in the kitty. The problem is, their replacements may have children too. Please don't mention the 350million, that will be well gobbled up And the gov't has a policy to favour free schools and academies.

In case you didn't realise, my comment on committing hara kiri was, of course, a joke

bearbehind I don't normally read or respond to your posts but I will make an exception on this occasion, just for you.

Advance search is a wonderful thing isn't it.

Bearbehind
As ever you miss the point surfer, I'm saying if they do suffer they'll think it's a bad idea. There is a big difference between wishing it on people and thinking it will happen.

[Really? Looks like a whole load of wishing to me.]

Bearbehind Thu 08-Sep-16 08:17:29
[Bear behind you want people in Sunderland to lose their jobs to punish them for voting for Brexit?]

I want people who voted Leave to understand what damage they've done to the country. It seems that is only going to happen when they see beyond the flag flying rhetoric and actually start to feel the impact.

If you voted Leave even after being told your employer is very likely to look at alternative locations which are still in the EU in the event Leave won therefore now your job is on the line then I have absolutely no sympathy.

Peregrina Thu 08-Sep-16 08:31:50
I have been reflecting on this and yes, I agree. The Nissan workers were warned that their employer could pull out, so yes, if they get what they voted for they need to accept the consequences.

Bearbehind Thu 08-Sep-16 11:32:53
wrong I'm hoping people realise what a disaster Brexit is likely to be and do something about it.

I cannot comprehend the logic of someone voting Leave when they've been explicitly told it is very likely to result in their employer leaving the country, particularly in an area where there aren't many alternative job options.

If the threat of Nissan leaving the UK starts to convince people this is a really dangerous road we're treading and encourages them to change their opinion then I'm all for it.

[Truly disgusting, shame on you.]

I see no twisting or ambiguity, it looks pretty clear to me and its still disgusting

Whilst trawling I came across another of your posts in which you say 'I'm not convinced a50 will ever be invoked'. You must be feeling gutted right now

Oh please don't bother responding - I won't be back on this Board and will be too full of champagne to care.

My final cheers to the Leavers wishing you well and the very best that life has to offer.

Calleach you clearly move in very different circles from the average Leave or Remain voter in the UK. Only about 7% of pupils of any nationality are in the Independent sector.

Don't bugger off Rorty

I thought it was funny, and it was an obvious joke so didn't quite understand how it was taken as a literal statement tbh.

Lots of good wishes in life and future to you too btw, in case you don't come back again - you've made me lol often on these threads 🍾 🍻 🥂

rorty you are actually as sad as I thought you were and have dragged up posts which actually just prove what I was saying.

I clearly wasn't 'wishing' redundancy on anyone.

I absolutely stand by my comments that it is going to take something pretty major to make people realise the shit storm they've unleashed but we're closer to that than ever so there's no need to labour that point.

You, on the other hand , were rejoicing in the prospect of people killing themselves after A50 tomorrow.

Joke or not, it wasn't funny.

Crawl back under your bridge stone

Feel free to report this and get it deleted if you choose.