To ask you to sign up to this campaign?

[Niamer]

If you voted for "Brexit at any cost" this will not be of any interest to you. If you voted Leave because you wanted the best for your family and UK, or you voted Remain, please consider supporting Gina Miller's campaign. She is pushing for a meaningful Parliamentary vote at the end of Brexit negotiations, ie with an option to remain in the EU if the deal we get isn't as good as what we have already. Most of my friends who voted Leave have said "Yeah, I wouldn't mind", as however we voted, most of us want the best for our children.
Please sign up here:www.campaign2018.org

Not directed at anyone in particular, but it's a recurring theme. Anyone who dares to suggest that there should be a vote on what happens once we have a clearer idea of what pile of utter pigshit we'll end up with gets shouted down with "WILL OF THE PEOPLE".

I actually believe that there would be a different result this year, but then I'm a trusting soul and like to think that we couldn't have the same comprehensive vat of downright lies allowed to stand a second time. But I'm probably being naive and Farage, Gove, BJ etc. will just spew out more and more lies as before...

.

Oh God, not another campaign to stop Brexit.

Parliament voted to have a referendum, the
people voted in the referendum, G Miller tried
to use the courts to stop the result but then MPs
voted overwhelmingly to LEAVE the EU.

Why do people think un-elected privileged peers should be allowed to overrule both the electorate and our elected representatives.

18 months of lobbying the EU to give us the worst possible deal will cause massive harm to our country and all because the undemocratic minority are rage quitting.

Some one please save us!

I can't get over this this insistence that because we've had one "democratic" vote made, that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES must there ever be another chance for a democratic vote on the issue.

Why the rush? June 23rd 2016 was 41 years after the previous referendum of 1975, so in all fairness it looks like the next one's due in 2057.

Even then, the 1970s vote was only on whether we should stay in the "Common Market" which was nothing like the EU of the present day.

I'm not interested in another referendum (which I woildnt get to vote in anyway). OTOH as someone with a genuine interest in parliamentary democracy, I would sincerely like for there to be a meaningful vote in the HoC on what brexit will look like.

Why are leavers so scared of this? Because if the brexit deal is so marvellous, then it will get support of the HoC.

By protesting so furiously you give the impression that you already know the deal will be shit. Right?

*Why are leavers so scared of this (another vote on staying in the EU after 18 months)?

Because it would stop us negotiating a good deal.

I don't want another referendum or an election until there is a party that effectively represent centre ground politics. Failing that I want my remain MP to represent her own views and the interests of her constituents in an area where any thing but a Brexit that gives access for services and our science and knowledge economy is going to be devastating.

The whole point of parliament is that on any major issue it debates detailed plans, and with a full airing of the detailed issues, in all their complexity, and reaches a consensus on the interests of the country as a whole, hopefully not dictated by an out of touch dogma driven fringe of opportunist hacks and elites speaking for an equally out of touch hard Brexit seeking minority. At the moment nobody who is highlighting the complexity and irrelevance of all the sentiment driven rhetoric is getting heard.

By protesting so furiously you give the impression that you already know the deal will be shit. Right

Wrong - we're just sick of Gina Miller ( & people like her ) trying to stop Brexit. & dress it up all you like but that's what she's trying to do, or certainly was in the beginning. Now she's just trying to frustrate the process as best she can.
She won't get anywhere, but maybe she's just getting a bit addicted to fame?

Anon Effective negotiation is not poker or a game of cat and mouse or divk swinging. It is the patient and consensual search for the best solution for both parties, given their aims and power base. Berners has proved that in the past with the City of London regulation that have protected us from the worst excesses of the City. Approaching a negotiation in a bullying way with threats just pushes both parties into extreme positions and prevents the best solution going forward. Threatening no deal just makes a bad deal more likely.

Totally agree Anon1234567890 honestly its pitiful. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Well, actually, I do. I laugh every day reading Remainer posts - the doom and the gloom, what about the children, the sky is falling in, how can we afford to go on holiday, the unwarranted superiority, the Leaver name calling, the crying and gnashing of teeth - so thanks for the laughs

If brexit is going to be so great, why would a Tory majority in the HoC turn it down?

They will only turn it down if it's a shit deal, and of course they would be right to do that, and of course that's what you are all afraid of.

That, and assertive women with dark skin.

Rorty My earlier point, and why I am going to sign. All those leavers trying to shut down proper debate with emotion ........ #predictable

negotiation is not poker or a game of cat and mouse or divk swinging. It is the patient and consensual search for the best solution for both parties, given their aims and power base
Did you tell the EU that?

If that is the case then why worry about Brexit, because in your world we will end up with the best possible solution.

If brexit is going to be so great, why would a Tory majority in the HoC turn it down?

Umm they didn't, (except for Ken Clarke).

They will only turn it down if it's a shit deal

And another vote to stay in the EU in 18 months would guarantee we would be given a shit deal. Hence why the vote will be on the deal, or leave. We have already settled the matter over remain or stay.

As I posted Berners has already demonstrated he is capable of a positive negotiating process but if May continues to approach it in the way she is doing then it will force the EU into an equally confrontational stance. Or are you lining this up to be all the mean EU's fault? As I see it the EU are stating their position clearly and without emotion whilst it is May doing the sabre rattling around a set of demands that are so clearly counter to everything they are saying as to offer no way out but a breakdown in talks . It will cost us more than it will cost them.

If there is still very strong anti-EU and pro-Leave sentiment
I don't think there is strong anti-EU sentiment. Of course there is some, as there is some strong pro- EU sentiment. Then there is apathy by the bucketload.

As far as I understand it, the issues are relatively simple. There are going to be two (main) points of negotiation. The first is money and the second is trade. The issue is that there is a clear trade off between the level of access we get to European markets and our ability to set our own trading standards, immigrations controls and the like. May and the others would have us believe that we can affect this trade off (so negotiate a lower "price" for market access). The noises from EU suggest that this is unrealistic- Thus the issue is how much access to markets we are prepared to sacrifice to have "control" and it seems to be clearly reasonable that parliament should have a vote on it - not least because it will encourage the government to consult parliament on this very question.

I strongly feel, however, that there is no mandate for anything other than a very soft brexit (FOM, ECJ , single market etc). Triggering article 50 gives us the power to change these arrangements AFTER a general election and AFTER the impact of various policies has been established. The white paper made clear that they did not know what the best immigration policy would look like - Davies has come out in favour of low skilled migration from the EU

Niamer Can I ask why you think the majority of those who voted in the referendum voted leave, against the advice of the government, most MPs, and almost every organisation of any note, despite warnings of dire economic consequences and attempts, by some, to paint voting leave as a racist and stupid choice, if it wasn't due to strong anti-EU sentiment?

Does Gina Miller pay for her campaigns herself? If so she must be minted.
Or does she get like minded people to chip in?

Who is she? Where does she get funding?

And why is she doing it?

Niamer Can I ask why you think the majority of those who voted in the referendum voted leave, against the advice of the government, most MPs, and almost every organisation of any note, despite warnings of dire economic consequences and attempts, by some, to paint voting leave as a racist and stupid choice, if it wasn't due to strong anti-EU sentiment?

Yes. The Leave campaign was very effective. Dishonest but effective. Emotions were whipped up and the EU became a scapegoat for all our ills from the struggling NHS to bendy bananas.

Only 27% of the population voted leave, so I don't think we can conclude there is strong anti EU sentiment in the UK as a whole. And I wouldn't say there isn't strong pro-EU sentiment either.

An additional answer to that question here:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage

"one third of all traffic on Twitter before the EU referendum was automated “bots” – accounts that are programmed to look like people, to act like people, and to change the conversation, to make topics trend. And they were all for Leave."

To be honest honest op I didn't pay too much attention to the campaign, I had wanted out for a very long time before that. You are very mistaken if you don't think there is strong feeling out there of course there is. I agree with A4.
We gave the strange project 41 long years to get it together and prove itself. It's clearly failed. I would be happy after another few decades to address this again. We do need to give it time what is absolutely clear however, the current eu situation is untenable

I haven't read that article Kaija, I will have a read. But just to point out, bots didn't get a vote. Also, a question - is it known what percentage of the electorate use Twitter? (I don't use it and I don't personally know many people who do). Just wondering how much people are actually influenced by randoms on Twitter, or anywhere else - I don't know the answer, just musing. Also, if you look at long term polls, there has been a sizeable proportion of the UK population sceptical about the EU for some years, and certainly from before the referendum campaigns started.