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achieves the message that you cant migrate here illegally start a family and then live here forever against the rules.

Anon 20:23

"Who came over illegally?
Well self evidently the women referenced in this thread."

You said migrated here

Not remained here

Anon. It is not self evident, she was going through the process, and attended a scheduled appointment. At that point she was told she was refused, was going to be deported and detained. At no point in that process was she in the country illegally, she was complying with the legal process. Self evidently If you are in this country illegally and they have your address they come and arrest you, they don't make an appointment for you to surrender!

I don't know if it's worth trying to explain my point but I'll try anyway.

I thought, probably wrongly but because of the way the Guardian article was phrased, that the GMC poll was of all EU doctors in the UK, but only 10% responded, and that the Guardian were then wildly extrapolating from the results. I think we can all agree that not too many conclusions should be drawn from a poll with a 10% response rate. It's not the size of the sample that matters so much as whether the sample is representative of the whole.

However I then realised that I had misunderstood this, and that actually the GMC poll was only of 10% of EU doctors. I then posted to say that I had made a mistake, and to ignore my post.

If my initial interpretation of the poll findings had been right, then my criticism of the Guardian would have been valid. As I was mistaken, it wasn't, and I said so.

I can't see what your problem is with what I have said, but nevermind, I think if I said blue was blue someone would claim that in the past I have posted that blue is green.

"Who came over illegally?

Ah, Anon is using the 'Farage defence'. When asked about the £350 million a week for the NHS on 24th June, he immediately said that it was a claim he hadn't made. Perfectly true, but nor had he distanced himself from it either, and which statement belonged to which Leave campaign were lost on many.

For those who can't be bothered to scroll back, it was allegretto who made the claim that the woman came over here illegally.

I have posted that blue is green.
In some languages the words are the same, so blue really is green and green blue. (It's getting late... )

Blimey, it's getting desperate times on here isn't it? So now, instead of just saying "oops, no you didn't say that, it was someone else", all posters have effectively made any posts which they have not distanced themselves from.

Oh for the good old days when we used to argue based on what people actually said.

For those who can't be bothered to scroll back, it was allegretto who made the claim that the woman came over here illegally

For those of you who can't be bothered to actually read what I write, I most definitely did NOT make this claim. I questioned who it was referring to as I said it was definitely not self-evident! Please check before defaming me.

Who came over illegally?

Sorry, I misread the statement allegretto. You were asking which person came over illegally, whereas I read it to mean that the lady in question came over illegally. We have to be careful what we write - in a face to face conversation it's possible to tell that someone has misunderstood, on the phone, sometimes by tone of voice. In print? Difficult.

Wrong, Amen to that this evening.....

Well the survey of EU doctors is unclear. The Guardian says 10% responded, which suggests all were surveyed and the result would be self-selecting and unreliable.
The BMA says 1,193 were surveyed, which makes it more representative. However, the total only represents 7% of UK doctors and they responded to the question that they feel committed to working in the UK as 6 out of 10 (less than previously, but till better than not). I would also expect foreign workers in any profession to have an expectation of going home at some point.

I would also expect foreign workers in any profession to have an expectation of going home at some point.

What a weird thing to say. My personal experience of migrancy is that after a 2 year period, people are much less likely to return "home", and once you get beyond 5 years people rarely leave their new home unless forced out by circumstances.

Most migrants who return permanently to their country of origin are either people who decide quite quickly that their new home is not for them, or expats (in the true sense of the term) for whom working abroad was always intended as a temporary arrangement.

Re the BMA survey, 7% of a population is a large sample, though that doesn't in itself tell you whether the sampling was done properly. (Opinion polling, of an entire population of tens or hundreds of millions of people, is often based on samples of around 1000 people).

In the context of the above, and considering that medicine is a highly mobile profession, the 40% is a concern. No one is suggesting that 40% of EU doctors are going to leave, but if even 4% did so it would worsen the current recruitment crisis.

I would also expect foreign workers in any profession to have an expectation of going home at some point.

What a strange idea!
Does it mean that you never expect foreigners to actually settle and integrate fully in a country? Or that you don't expect them to meet someone whilst they are in that country?

Or is that you expect that, of someone is so settle then they will HAVE to take the citizenship anyway?

Very very weird.

I would also expect foreign workers in any profession to have an expectation of going home at some point.

Perhaps this, in a nutshell, is the clash of "cultures" which divides the posters on this board?

Perhaps for some posters, once born in the foreign There, you are always foreign: There, and only There, is properly your Home.

Unless you perform an elaborate and arbitrary set of rituals to entirely divest yourself of any hint of foreign taint and demonstrate an exaggeratedly singular loyalty to Here (dressed up with pretty, yet conveniently unquantifiable words like "commitment" and "patriotism" and "identity"), you will never be quite good enough.

And still, in fact, you will never be really from Here, will you?

It's an attitude that doesn't distinguish between temporary expatriation, and migration, which are two different things.

One of the features of temporary expatriation, as practised by Britons, is that they never really "migrate" - they simply temporarily transfer their lives and culture to foreign climes. You see this in anglophone enclaves in places like Spain and the Middle east. It's a kind of colonial hangover.

Most migrancy isn't like this: typically it's long term and involves the gradual assimilation of major parts of the host culture, especially from the second generation onwards. My own kids - second generation immigrants - identify much more strongly with the host culture than with their birth nationality, and they're pretty typical from what I see around me (DD is in a bilingual school programme full of the children of immigrants, almost all of whom seem to identify as French).

I've also wondered before if the difference in attitude isn't also related to the expectations on how to 'welcome' foreigners.
I was very surpised arriving here to see British people expected to accept and know all the different cultures people are coming from and to accept them fully. Whether it's religion, dress code, talking to people etc...
I'm much more used to a situation where incomera are expected to blend in as much as possible and to ertianly not ask for special treatments because they are from xxx.
This, I think, explains the attitude of Brits abroad. They expect people to accept them as they are , with their language etc... rather than them making the efford to blend, learn the language and so on.

Or at least, that how I think it WAS working. Not sure anymore what is and isn't the expected behaviour here anymore.

What I do reject big way is a two ways system where incomers inthe uk are expected to blend, be 'like an englishman' and go in to take the citizenship whilst Brits abroad can just be EXPATS and expect everyone to go way above board to keep them happy. which is what I feel is going atm TBH

Misti I think you misread it. Only 7% of doctors (about 12,000) are from the EU. If 4% of them leave it is around 500 out of around 200,000 practicing doctors.

One thing you forget carol is the number of health care professionals due to retire within the next decade. Even if only 4% leave, which I would suggest it's a conservative estimate, we are not in a position really to lose anyone who is still of working age.

mother I was referring to the people in Spain or in France who have taken over whole villages and are expecting that everyone to speak English with them. So much so that plumber and the likes now have all the stuff written in English on their van. Village shop has newspapers in English and french people feel kicked out of the place.

I have been told on here that it was just good business sense and where was the issue?

Not another bloody petition.

I think some people think petitions are like magic wands, you wave it (or sign it in this case) and it will ALL go away.

Not another bloody petition.

Democracy.

Misti I think you misread it. Only 7% of doctors (about 12,000) are from the EU. If 4% of them leave it is around 500 out of around 200,000 practicing doctors.

Not at all. Depending on what specialisms those doctors work in, 500 could leave quite a gap to fill.

mother in my experience younger professional expats (like the ones at Airbus near where I live) do usually make an effort to learn the language and integrate, but that is not always the case.

Re language, we find that French people are often only too eager to practice their English on us, which is slightly awkward as often it makes no sense to have a halting conversation in english when I speak fluent french. I usually just say politely that we can speak in french if they prefer.