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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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BigChocFrenzy · 24/02/2017 21:11

I was censored ! < dons tin foil hat / smacks iPad >

Corbyn tweets:
"Theresa May is threatening to use Brexit to turn Britain into a bargain basement tax haven"

The unkind reply came:
"With you as opposition leader, she can do as she likes really"

Very true.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/02/2017 21:18

Did Nuttall really announce after the count that both he and UKIP were "going nowhere" ?

Well at least he made one true statement GrinGrinGrin

I wonder if he owns that unfurnished house in Stoke .....

BigChocFrenzy · 24/02/2017 21:34

Scathing verdicts on Corbyn after the byelections

"To the casual observer of politics, Labour’s performance in two by-elections last night may have seemed merely mediocre ....

But the prognosis is far more severe. Labour was defending majorities of several thousand votes each in seats that should have been its traditional heartlands.
Coupled with its organisational networks and much-vaunted ability to mobilise manpower, Labour should have held both. Comfortably."

"The ubiquity of the Labour leader’s face and comments on Conservative campaign material was in sharp contrast to his notable absence from many Labour leaflets."

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/copeland-failure-exposes-deep-cracks-in-corbyns-leadership-3x0mcq7fg

A party & leader are really in trouble when they can't manage to be rated even "mediocre"

ITV’s Chris Ship:
“Have you at any point looked in the mirror and thought, ‘Could the problem be me?’”

“No,” said Mr Corbyn.
“Why not?” asked the journalist
“Thank you for your question,” said Mr Corbyn.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/24/

woman12345 · 24/02/2017 21:45

Just caught up:
No, because I'm a Brexiter Woman
What, does that make you poorly? Grin
Flowers semi, hope you're enjoying your studies, and wishing everyone good health.

woman12345 · 24/02/2017 21:56

Their football team has been miles better than England's since 1966 too
careful BigChoc you might need that shelterGrin

Trouble at t'mill::
Senior Labour MP David Winnick admitted that Mr Corbyn should consider his position after the party lost the seat by 2,000 votes.

Not sure who would take over, honest truth is Labour will split, and we'll go the way of SDP hell.

Kaija · 24/02/2017 21:56

*ITV’s Chris Ship:
“Have you at any point looked in the mirror and thought, ‘Could the problem be me?’”

“No,” said Mr Corbyn.
“Why not?” asked the journalist
“Thank you for your question,” said Mr Corbyn.*

Oh God.

HashiAsLarry · 24/02/2017 22:18

Its alright bigchoc, I'll shield you. Being a proper season ticket holding part English football fan I know you're right there Sad.

HashiAsLarry · 24/02/2017 22:20

Though having said that I've always been quite partial to German F1 drivers which is apparently a complete no-no, so maybe its my mathematical brain that prefers the Germanic efficiency Grin

howabout · 24/02/2017 22:34

Hashi I admit to sharing your partiality for German F1 drivers. In my case it is not admiration for their efficiency but more their single minded ruthlessness. Make of that what you will. Blush

BigChocFrenzy · 24/02/2017 23:01

Thanks Hashi and commiserations: you & all the England supporters deserve a better football team.
It's baffling how they are quite that mediocre every blessed tournament.
They're only good at the team song.

I remember the 1966 win and Bobby Moore holding up the cup
I must admit I was bored by football even then Blush but if I'd realised it was a once in a millenium event I would have paid more attention !

HashiAsLarry · 24/02/2017 23:05

I think the England football team and its failings are as massive a talking point but harder to nail than the imminent collapse of the Labour party Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 24/02/2017 23:07

I've no interest in F1, but I am partial to Lewis Hamilton < shameless >

HashiAsLarry · 24/02/2017 23:07

howabout I was always very amused that Michael Schumacher's answer when he was challenged about cheating was always along the lines of 'well it worked'

BigChocFrenzy · 24/02/2017 23:08

"the hand of Maradonna"

BigChocFrenzy · 24/02/2017 23:22

Corbyn

"Losing a seat that has been held by Labour in every election since 1935 certainly signifies a break from the old politics, but not the one that was advertised to Labour members."

"MPs who canvassed the constituency report a deeper frustration with Corbyn – a sense that he simply isn’t up to the job; that he has been miscast in a role to which he isn’t suited;
that the party is insulting its longest-serving supporters by telling them that this man should be their prime minister when they can see that he wouldn’t be able to do the job and might not even really want it."

one MP who was knocking on doors in Stoke reports:
“Corbyn is a massive issue. Every single activist has a horror story to tell about what they’ve heard people say about him … It’s not sustainable.”

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/24/jeremy-corbyn-labour-copeland-stoke-leader

Change Strategy & try to woo Remain voters ?

"it seems to have forgotten (or not realised) that most of those who voted Labour in 2015 – including those living in Labour seats in the North and the Midlands – backed remain.
The party is thus at greater risk of losing votes to the pro-remain Liberal Democrats than to pro-Brexit Ukip.

"Ukip itself shares this misapprehension about the importance of the Labour leave vote. Hardly anyone who voted remain is willing to vote for Ukip."
Yet it insists on targeting a Labour vote that voted by two to one to remain rather than a Conservative vote where well over half voted to leave."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/24/stoke-copeland-labour-remain-richmond-copeland-ukip

BigChocFrenzy · 24/02/2017 23:26

"Theresa May regularly looks scared out of her wits"

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/24/copeland-labour-stoke-crisis-jeremy-corbyn

Yes, I've thought this too.
I'm reminded of the lady who was riding the tiger:

"They returned from the ride
With the lady inside,
And the smile on the face of the tiger."

woman12345 · 24/02/2017 23:31

Grin true

woman12345 · 24/02/2017 23:42

Have you seen why she (and we) are terrified? It is proper fascism.
www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/24/media-blocked-white-house-briefing-sean-spicer

SwedishEdith · 25/02/2017 01:25

More on the effects of the proposed boundary changes in Manchester.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/boundary-changes-greater-manchester-mps-11880553

Motheroffourdragons · 25/02/2017 09:12

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Badders123 · 25/02/2017 09:25

I think ukip will implode and cease to exist
Great eh?
Except that the tories will become ukip in all but name and will actually be able to win elections and have MPs in parliament
I truly believe as a country we are on a prespice
😞

prettybird · 25/02/2017 09:30

There are parallels between Brexit the English football team....

The media going on as nauseum in the opinion of Scots Wink about an era of past glory when "we" Hmm ruled the world, an overhyped opinion of England's strength, other countries especially the pesky Germans getting in the way of England's deserved place at the top of the pile.....

Wonder if May will go the same way as the England managers when the "team" doesn't deliver Grin

borntobequiet · 25/02/2017 09:49

RTB's comment at 08:49 that we have a socialist style health service with a capitalist wage structure at the top end, and therein lies a lot of the problem, seems to me one of the most insightful points I have seen made about the NHS. And I come from a medical family, have a high regard for doctors and very much understand the difficult job they do.

borntobequiet · 25/02/2017 10:00

Oops! RTB's comment was on Friday! I have been catching up after Doris power cuts...

RedToothBrush · 25/02/2017 10:02

Born, that's why the bus promise was so potent.

People want the NHS but don't want to pay for it.

Manchester boundary changes are interesting. Will try and have a good look at when I get a chance. I think in the shorter term, Greater Manchester is interesting due to the Mayor's election. Too many people think Burnham is a shoe in. On 2015's GE result he should win it in the first round. It might not be as easy as he thinks, with how things are changing.

OP posts: