Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

[RedToothBrush]

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

I don't know about not paying for the NHS - I think a modest increase in tax would be acceptable to many, if they could guarantee that it went to the NHS.

My dad has been diagnosed with type diabetes a few months ago following a liver issue.
He was given metformin. Nothing else. No advice on how to eat at all. No info on the risk associated with uncontrolloed blood sugar.
My mum did all the research, spent hours on the Internet and deviced a new diet for him.
The result is that my dad is now off all tablets because his blood sugar is fully controlled. But not because the NHS or doctor helped him in any way to do so.
That's what I'm talking about. Even with a diagnosis of diabetes, you can do a hell of a lot with your diet and lifestyle and avoid being even more ill if not solving the issue as such. Instead people are put on medication, blood sugar is still uncontrolled. They are then put on insulin which is often still not working and you end up with people needed amputation, having heart attacks or getting blind. So many people are actually dying of diabetes it's unreal.
When all that could be prevented with the right sort of support on diet right at the time of the diagnosis.
How much money do you think the NHS would save if it was doing that?

Now I'll tell ou why it's not happening. Because it's very hard work to guide someone to change their diet, esp when they can't actually see the damage it's doing. It takes time and building relationship. All the things that the NHS hasn't being giving to people for a very very long time.

RedandYellow As my oncologist commented, "so you did everything right , but then so did most women who walk through my door" . The media has bigged up the role of lifestyle factors in Cancer, along with covering up the true nature of the issues with the rhetoric of war and the cloud of pink candy floss. There are obviously Cancers that can be directly caused by eg smoking but speaking from experience of Breast Cancer known risk factors account for just 5% of risk, and the known genetic factors for 4% of that, so the known lifestyle factors , diet (and actually the latest research is that being slightly overweight actually improves your survival chances) , exercise, feeding your baby, alcohol etc account for 1% of your risk. The rest is likely to be a complex interaction of genes and environment, with lifetime exposure to hormones being the most likely culprit in all the hormonal Cancers, breast, uterine, cervical, prostate (my oncologist believes it will emerge as a connection akin to Smoking and Cancer ).

So yes most women who develop Breast Cancer are as far as we know just unlucky and this victim blaming has no basis in scientific fact.

But you would not get that reading the Daily Mail......

Nor would you realise that 30 % of women who develop Breast Cancer go on to develop the secondary terminal disease, and nobody has any clue at all why, not least because the NHS keeps no records, and has no idea of the economic and other resources it needs in place. It is not pink and fluffy so it is ignored.

RedandYellow. My Mum has had exactly that advice and support in the diabetes clinic at their cottage hospital........

RedandYellow. My Mum has had exactly that advice and support in the diabetes clinic at their cottage hospital........

*Taking about taxes or no taxes is very short sighted IMO.

In what way ?

I think it is a reasonable assumption to make that there is a shortage of money available in the NHS at the moment. Where else are you going to get money ?

Unless of course you are advocating getting rid of it...*

Pay more taxes is not the answer.

The NHS has evolved into a massive behemoth of a black hole wrt money - simply throwing more money at a problem does not fix it, it simply provides a temporary sticking plaster.

I actually agree with Anne Widdecombe's comments last night on this issue - a cross party complete rethink on the NHS as a whole, including the care sector.
Something which looks through & past the tired rhetoric from all the major parties.

There are so many ways it could be restructured & improved - loads of easy wins re spending better etc yet everybody is scared of saying anything negative re the NHS as it's instantly seen as an attack on the people who work within it, and this mindset has been encouraged by Labour unfortunately.

UKIP area single issue party that have got what they wanted. Now the Torys are carrying out their wishes, they should be redundant, however they have become a "socially acceptable" option for people who would really vote BNP. Ukip have siphoned off the racist Labour voters, splitting the Labour vote. Lib Dems still have toxic association from the coalition with the Tories. Meanwhile we have no effective opposition to a Tory government.

Support for Type 2 diabetes seems to depend on where you live. A friend controlled it solely with diet, under guidance from her Drs surgery.

Meanwhile we have no effective opposition to a Tory government
agree with your post, cat (! Good name!)
Perfect result for Banks.

The NHS recently had a complete restructure courtesy of Andrew Lansley, and achieved nothing other than wasting a large amount of money.

I think a modest increase in tax would be acceptable to many, if they could guarantee that it went to the NHS.

Wasn't that a Labour manifesto pledge going back ? And they lost ?

The Singapore and Hong Kong public healthcare systems are rooted in local culture. It is expected that the extended family will provide the nursing and other non medical care (I think Singapore has a form of national health insurance but that covers the extended family not just the earner. ) On top of that both have large private sectors with full service hospitals (acute services tend not to be offered in U.K. Private hospitals) and because the treatment in the public sector tends to be less prompt and less thorough (though there is an element of over testing / treatment in the private sector ) most people that can afford it have health insurance.

As my oncologist commented, "so you did everything right , but then so did most women who walk through my door"

A researcher I know commented that the best advice for avoiding cancer was to have the right parents ....

As my oncologist commented, "so you did everything right , but then so did most women who walk through my door"
DM's oncologist asked her if she came from a large family with a lot of women. When DM said yes she was told 'one of you was going to get this, you just got unlucky, sorry about that'. I don't think she found that all that comforting really!

Every "efficency drive" in the nhs seems to involve adding more non-medical staff and reducing patient care.
The Uk spends much less as a % of GDP than comparable European countries (The US spends more, but v inefficiently)

People seem to believe they can have US levels of taxation, but European levels if health care & public services.
The money fairy riding in on the unicorn.

If you want a better nhs and welfare services then pay for them.
Via taxation. Vote for a party that promises this.

Don't divert attention for the cutbacks by blaming people for getting ill / disabled / fat etc
Someone will eventually get around to blaming you, when you need help.

In Germany I happily pay higher tax (although wages are also higher) in return for efficient public services and the vulnerable being better looked after.
There is still a social contract here, that the better off are prepared to pay more for public services, because it is the decent thing to do, a social good.

A guy at work had cancer:
He's an ordinary technician, not particularly skilled or well paid. He had no extra insurance.
No delay in tests, diagnosis, treatment
Comfortable modern facilities, the most effective drugs, not the cheaper choice.
Specialist psychological support throughout.

After the chemo his oncologists sent him for 4 weeks - fully paid - to a clinic in the Swiss Alps, because of the v pure air quality and specialist rehab.
The purpose was to detox his body from all the chemo crap and bring him back to full fitness again; he said the others he met on his chemo course recvd similar. It seems quite standard aftercare, although location varies.
He was put on a superhealthy diet and gentle exercise in a relaxing beautiful environment, with more psychological support
Since he was supervised by specialists, of course he stuck to this regime and was supported to develop healthy habits that he has kept to this day.

btw, he was and is a slim, non-smoking, v moderate drinking, vegetarian cyclist.
I'm not sure how he was to blame for his cancer

Don't divert attention for the cutbacks by blaming people for getting ill / disabled / fat etc
Someone will eventually get around to blaming you, when you need help.

This is important.
If you took a snapshot of me now, it would be easy to blame me for being ill.
Overweight & unfit.

Prior to 2013 I was physically extremely fit, ate a 'good' diet & was very healthy (at face value).

In 2013 I was diagnosed with a lifelong illness (and as it turned out I had myriad complications, which needed emergency surgery as I was unknowingly v close to death).
I was put on steroids & bedbound for about 4 months. I also had a mental breakdown around the same time & was diagnosed with bipolar later that year.

I am now that person who is a drain on the taxpayer.
I am constantly draining the NHS, and am on benefits.

It doesn't matter that I used to be a contributor to the economy (only benefit I ever received was CB) and had been for 20 yrs.

Meanwhile ...

Third of manufacturing firms want to move some operations out of UK after Brexit, report warns

Leaving EU is a 'game-changer' for UK manufacturing with two-thirds of companies believing the instability will be bad for the economy

(contd)

My DM is in a very similar position to you semi. Even Drs who don't know her history now will often blame her weight for her problems. Except before she nearly died from something that should have been easily dealt with long beforehand thanks to a GP cock up which led to a myriad of other problems and their associated drugs she was fit and slim. She still eats like she's slim too, not for dietary purposes but because that's genuinely what she wants to eat but can barely walk so no ability to regain fitness. 30+ years of being a tax payer with nothing but CB, and now she's on benefits and a drain on the NHS even according to some of their own doctors.

Sadly though DM is an immigrant who gave up applying for British Citizenship when they kept moving the goalposts so god knows what will happen to her if those 30+ years don't get taken into account.

^I am now that person who is a drain on the taxpayer.
I am constantly draining the NHS, and am on benefits^

Or you are a fellow human with whom it is a privilege to share resources.

semi

If you want a better nhs and welfare services then pay for them
Agree of course bigchoc,
And what civilised, probably much more effective treatment for your colleague. De toxing after chemo is not, as far as I know, part of the deal on the NHS, and people who do detox have to pay privately for nutritionists to advise. (SIL does this)

You can't legislate for compassion, but you can surely offer a framework for it. In the long term compassion saves money, if that's what is valued, but it also embiggens,( and prevents fascism) to quote Lisa Simpson.

Bigchoc Actually given extensive research that shows that patients who feel nurtured and supported and are given the opportunity of ownership of treatment decisions do better UK hospitals have become much better in the last twenty years at offering support services for Cancer patients, most offer various well ness activities, yoga, sessions on diet and exercise etc. as well as specialist nurses as a point of contact and greater control over your treatment etc. The problem is that as with treatment it is patchy. I do think the NHS would benefit far more from an overall sharing and implementing of best practise than constantly, as with schools, turn it arse about face in terms of expensive dogma driven re- organisation. The only people who benefit from that are Management Consultants who have had a feeding frenzy in the healthcare sector in recent years.

Or you are a fellow human with whom it is a privilege to share resources.

semi

No, because I'm a Brexiter Woman!

I can really empathise with your mum Hashi, it's a rubbish position to be in - the hardest thing is having to accept there's nothing you can do to control it, the only option is to 'manage' it as best you can.

I do believe that the migrant status thing will be resolved quickly once A50 is triggered, although there's no reason that UK shouldn't just make a unilateral decision right now imo.

Hope your mum's doing ok

No, because I'm a Brexiter

So what do you expect, (not hope) Brexit to deliver for the NHS?