To wonder if there are any Leave voters who actually are having second thoughts about Brexit

[Bearbehind]

Following Tony Blairs call for Remainers to convince Leavers to change their mind I'm wondering if there are actually any Leavers who are worried and might prefer us not to be going in the direction we are heading.

From what I've seen Leavers are more determined than ever and really don't seem in the slightest bit concerned about any negative repercussions so they're not going to be swayed.

Who is Blair aiming his comments at?

I know you didn't, Broken, but meanings can be clear even without direct quotes.

One way to show caring, is by listening :)

If you think that the rest of Europe is homogeneous, are you suggesting that (to pick a few random cities) Stockholm, Paris and Amsterdam are all the same? Aside from the fact that they all speak different languages.. actually, no, enlighten me.. how are they all so similar?

Europe doesn't control us. To put it simply, small issues are voted in by a qualified majority (of which the UK has ~13% of the votes despite only being 1 country of 28) and the big stuff requires unanimity i.e. the UK has a veto.

The ECHR was set up with the full cooperation of the the UK and has been enacted as law within the UK by the UK parliament. It's separate to our EU membership.

I'll put this right here

en.europenews.dk/Ten-Reasons-to-Get-Rid-of-the-European-Union-78453.html

Perhaps the meanings aren't as clear as you think they are, cream.

I don't actually believe that people were fools for voting leave (well, some were, but they're the exception rather than the rule). However, I do believe that they were deceived and now I think they're going to be shafted.

I absolutely agree that we need to listen to the views of people in disadvantaged communities and that we should strive to understand the specific problems that they face. However, I don't feel that there is anything remotely "caring" about imposing a "solution" that will pacify them in the short term while making their problems much, much worse in the longer term.

Real caring, I believe, would involve a proper analysis of the problem and a genuine commitment to investing in a solution.

Aeroflot girl, I am assuming that you don't know who fjordman who has written the article you have linked to is. He is a Norwegian blogger as far right and anti muslim you can get and his blogs inspired Anders Breivik when he went on his murder spree and killed nearly 100 people mostly children. Please check your sources!

Well, that I agree with.

It might start with a real analysis of why people did vote to leave, what the concerns were and is there a way to address those concerns without leaving? (I don't think there is, but we can but try!)

I know people who voted because of the bus. Or rather the claims that were printed in huge letters on the bus. They weren't too bothered either way and then were told that there would be loads of money for the NHS if they voted out, so they voted out.

I don't think there was any huge swell of opinion growing against the EU in the years before the referendum, I think people were just fed up with terrible services and were told that not being in the EU would make things better. Most people I know didn't actually have a strong opinion on being in the EU or not before the referendum.

Aeroflot - that opinion piece is far too verbose to respond to in full on a forum like this. That said, do you not find it incredibly short on facts?

The article has a running theme of Islam throughout it, so it's clear that the writer has an issue with Muslims.

Aside from the fact that the refugees who settled in Germany in the summer before last are unable to benefit from freedom of movement (it only applies to EU citizens), why should we in the UK be concerned about Islam due to being a member of the EU?

THERE ARE NO MUSLIM COUNTRIES IN THE EU!!

OK but he has the general gist of what i feel about the EU.

He is a neo nazi so perhaps you may want to rethink your sources of information

It might start with a real analysis of why people did vote to leave, what the concerns were and is there a way to address those concerns without leaving? (I don't think there is, but we can but try!)

But that's not what's happening, there is offer of compromise or possibility of not leaving. And people's concerns are still not being addressed. Everyone should be feeling angry, not just the Remainers. No one's voice is being heard.

It might start with a real analysis of why people did vote to leave, what the concerns were and is there a way to address those concerns without leaving? (I don't think there is, but we can but try!)

I think that the concerns expressed by many people are not necessarily the real cause of their discontent. My own view is that there has been chronic under-investment in many communities that have failed to keep pace in a globalised world. The old industries have gone and we have not considered how to replace them. Our education has been inadequate to prepare people for living in the modern world. This has left many of our young people with a lack of direction and little hope for a better future. We have failed to invest properly in affordable housing. We have failed to invest properly in the NHS and to plan for a world in which people are living much longer. We have failed to invest in the social care system. We have failed to invest in the infrastructure that might tempt companies away from London and the South East. And yes, we have failed to listen, over a period of several decades, to the people telling us that the system wasn't working for them.

In that climate, it was easy for the right-wing media and politicians like Farage to peddle the argument that the difficulties faced by people in so many parts of the country were because of the immigrants coming in, but that argument simply doesn't stand up. Yes, the immigrants will put some additional pressure on our health care system, but the majority of them are young, fit and healthy, and more to the point, our NHS would grind to a halt without them. Yes, some immigrants have taken unskilled jobs that could otherwise have been taken by local workers, but overall, immigrants put money back into our economy and that helps to create more jobs overall; the real problem that we have with unskilled jobs is that it's much cheaper for many companies to outsource them overseas, and that isn't going to change when we leave the EU.

My biggest objection to Brexit is that it isn't going to solve any of the problems that led people to vote for it, it's going to make those problems worse. And I think the tossers who headed up the leave campaign have known that all along, and they don't give a shiny shit about it.

What the two Leave campaigns knew, from the start, as made clear by both Arron Banks and Dominic Cummings, is that there is not a lot you can do to change people's minds, but there is a great deal you can do to engage and mobilise those who might, with a nudge, already be inclined to back you.

Vote Leave and Leave.eu spoke specifically to their target audience (extremely scientifically targeted -see Cambridge Analytica) with absolute disregard for the opinions of fact checkers, academics, experts, liberals etc - none of whom were ever going to vote Leave anyway. The more outrageous the campaign the better, as it means greater engagement from those who would not normally bother to vote (cf Trump who used the same strategists). As Banks said, facts don't work.

Remain, in trying to appeal to everyone, and fearful of alienating those on the other side, didn't get this, either before or after the referendum.

I think that Blair might just be taking a leaf out of Leave's book now in disregarding the feelings of Leave voters - who were clearly always going to be angered by his intervention - and attempting unapologetically to mobilise remainers. It may well cause leavers to dig their heels on and reaffirm their faith in Brexit, but I am not at all sure it matters. They are not the people the speech was for.

Interesting perspective, Kaija, and I'm sure you're right. However, I'm still not convinced that Blair is the right person to galvanize the Remainers. That said, I don't know who would be the right person.

We're curiously short of credible opposition politicians at the moment.

Well in fairness leavers seem to prefer to discuss baby names as they are more informed and able to hold their own in heated debates on this topic

?????

OK but he has the general gist of what i feel about the EU.

So you can't come up with an actual example of how the EU controlled us then aeroflotgirl? Just a 'gist of a feeling' written by someone else?

It might start with a real analysis of why people did vote to leave

Many of us have been trying to understand why for months.

There are never any answers that can be debated.

The reasons are usually completely without basis or are factually incorrect.

After that it's just a 'feeling'. You can't analyse 'feelings' and come up with answers.

Broken - yes it's far from ideal, but equally agree that I don't know who else could do it.

Agree with your previous post too.

Not just someone else. A right wing extremist whose writings inspired Anders Breivik's manifesto and killing.

Bear, you know already that I've not been swayed!

Just wanted to jump on to agree with you re how irritating it is that every single EU thread gets reported & moved.
It's pathetic.

Wrt Tony Blair - I am hugely biased as I hate him with every fibre of my being.

However, I would think that he has probably done more harm than good for the Remainers cause tbh - he is far too toxic.

Brokenness biscuit, a labour mp Frank field has said over the past course of the referendum why we need too vote leave to help the poor of the UK. It's not rocket science it's very simple. If you run a bus service there has to be a limit on people you allow on the bus. What more getting down to hear people's real concerns does anyone need!!

LOL at us actually agreeing on something semi!

It's good to have discussions with other people, not just the same old stalwarts on this section but it seems too many people need to bleach their eyes after even seeing the word Brexit so that's not possible.

It's no wonder it's so divisive.

But that's exactly the problem, it isn't simple at all. It's overly simplistic thinking that has got us into this mess. The country is not a bus and it doesn't operate like one.

I think that's why the divide appears so insurmountable sometimes with the regular posters of the other two threads tbh, bear.
We're fully entrenched and have a strong, ongoing, daily interest in it all.
The middle ground is not often heard.

Anyhoo, lovely to have agreed with you!