To wonder if there are any Leave voters who actually are having second thoughts about Brexit

[Bearbehind]

Following Tony Blairs call for Remainers to convince Leavers to change their mind I'm wondering if there are actually any Leavers who are worried and might prefer us not to be going in the direction we are heading.

From what I've seen Leavers are more determined than ever and really don't seem in the slightest bit concerned about any negative repercussions so they're not going to be swayed.

Who is Blair aiming his comments at?

They don't like to talk so much about how young people voted Remain and the masses of elderly people in very prosperous parts of the country who voted Brexit.

They don't talk about the 2/3 of Tory voters who voted Leave either, many of whom must be in the south of England. It's all about the left behind communities in the north. Admittedly some southern communities are deprived, and it is perhaps almost worse, because they can be cheek by jowl with wealthy communities, whereas in the northern communities it is more that they are all in the same boat.

I find it strange that so many things are being blamed on the leave vote when article 50 hasn't even been triggered yet and it will probably be another 2 years until we actually leave. I think the time to have a discussion about if it was the right or wrong decision will be in 10 years time when we will actually know what difference it has all made.

cheesecake I find it strange that you're seriously saying 'let's jump off this cliff and decide in 10 years if it was a good decision or not'

I agree with that, Cheese

Re the young/old divide: what can we do, realistically? In any case, it is ever thus that the older you get the more likely you are to veer away from socialism.

if staff cannot be found to wipe bottoms, feed, wash and dress, if the nations grannies and grandads were lying in their own waste, hungry and cold - those owning care homes and domiciliary care agencies would find the means to tempt staff in.

Sadly, I don't think that is happening. Care homes are finding it more difficult to make profits, despite high fees, and are closing.

It would be strange, if that was what Cheesecake had said, but it wasn't.

How is EU socialism?

In 2003, someone owning a care home was considered to be on a low salary with a £250,000 salary.

I think their idea of profitable and mine, might just differ :)

It isn't. But it is perceived to be the moral way, the 'right' way, the liberal way, hence it was supported by younger people.

Cream

Tory dogma opposed the welfare state because of the bullshit line about dependency. Everyone is then fed to capitalist wolves. Capitalism is a game and like all games there are winners and losers.

30 years ago young families got council houses now they go into insecure, expensive private rentals. A cycle of poverty and being trapped is created.

30 years ago the middle classes went to Uni. They still do today but end up saddled with debt unable to obtain the same standard of living as their parents had. We have gone backwards because of neo liberalism not the EU.

The problem is not that remainers haven't seen anything. The big problem is that some leavers still don't understand that leaving the EU will not solve their (very real) problems: in fact, it is going to make the vast majority of people's lives worse not better.

^This.

And this is why I get so sick of leave voters telling us to accept the result and make it work. I accept the result but I don't believe that we can make it work. I believe that we're fucked, and that the poorest among us are the most fucked of all.

And this is what makes me so angry about Brexit. A lot of people voted for it because they were sold a pack of lies by elite politicians who had political motivations for backing the leave campaign. The likes of Boris, Gove and Farage couldn't give a shit about the neglected regions of the north, and they won't do anything to help them either. Of course it wasn't the fault of individual voters that they didn't understand the complex issues that they were being asked to consider, but those individuals will pay the price of the choices that they made.

It would be strange, if that was what Cheesecake had said, but it wasn't.

That's exactly how I read it- how have you interpreted it?

I don't disagree with that Ghost

What I do disagree with is that therefore, adding millions of migrants to that combination, benefits anyone except the very wealthy.

As I said in an earlier post, my vote was a nuanced one. At no point have I thought 'the EU is all bad' any more than (I am sure) 'remain' voters saw it as purely benign.

Johnson and Farage did not create the discontent. They may have articulated it but it was still there. I'm honestly not at all convinced that the vote wouldn't have been the same even had there been no campaigning whatsoever for Leave.

if staff cannot be found to wipe bottoms, feed, wash and dress, if the nations grannies and grandads were lying in their own waste, hungry and cold - those owning care homes and domiciliary care agencies would find the means to tempt staff in.

More of these bizarre utopian ideals: Companies are suddenly going to pay workers more. Care homes are suddenly going to find the means to tempt staff in. I can see the appeal of this way of thinking but it's not based on anything to do with economics.

My Dad had 8 carers, (paid by the state, thank you!) 6 EU, 2 non EU immigrants. Ah well, it will be totally cool when we get rid of them and pay British carers loads instead. Can't wait.

Cream, I do not agree. I personally voted against joining the EU when my own country had a referendum and we never joined. I am not a fan of the EU and I see many of the same flaws as leavers see including issues with FOM especially for the UK. I think it was good that Uk never joined the Euro and Schengen too. However, I don't think the solution is Brexit and it especially worries me now in an increasingly unstable world.

They may have articulated it but it was still there

Having had discussions with people from Carlisle and Tyneside, I think the discontent was a feeling of being neglected, by Westminster. I heard statements, no doubt a bit tongue in cheek, that it would be nice for the Scottish border to be extended southwards, so that there would be a chance of Independence. Farage in particular managed to make this discontent a 'blame immigrants' game.

Birdy, I don't think it's a utopian ideal to state that if you can't find people to do the work, either your company folds or you make sure you can find them.

I used care as an example but it applies to anything - and it's not just money. It's also about rights at work.

If someone says 'I am unwell today, I can't come in',' and there are applications in their dozens on your desk, you can tell them to get their backside in or they won't have any hours the next week. If your desk is clear of applications and someone says the same, your power is diminished.

Freedom of movement has led to unprecedented levels of a ready, eager and willing workforce - and what seems to pass as a left wing view nowadays is that British people aren't willing to do said jobs. I don't think that's the case, and nor do I think they will be paid 'loads' - but as with most things, the more the demand is, the more power you have. That works both ways.

Ghost - exactly, but whilst we're in the EU, governments from the 80s onwards have blamed it for the fallout of new-liberalism.

It won't be until we're out, and enough time has passed to make this blaming impossible, that UK governments will have to stand on their own merits.

I sometimes wonder why leavers and remainers aren't marching together to campaign for £350million a week for the NHS? That's what I mean about finding areas of common interest that could influence the government to write it into A50.

People are marching against leaving, not for what they want to see in A50. If no one except other politicians pressures the government, then it seems as if the public are not bothered.

Had we voted to remain, we would almost certainly have ended up joining the Euro.

What I do disagree with is that therefore, adding millions of migrants to that combination, benefits anyone except the very wealthy.

I'd say it benefits businesses, the NHS, academia etc.

Johnson and Farage did not create the discontent.

Oh the latter did. And the gutter press who peddled anti migrant anti EU stories for decades. The EU would barely be on the radar otherwise. In a sane and rational world people living in areas of very low migrants wouldn't be blaming migrants for their problems!

Had we voted to remain, we would almost certainly have ended up joining the Euro.

No we wouldn't.

I also think the Tories and right wing press has done something very clever when alienating the working class against the "liberal elite". It is the very same people who are the most likely to vote for policies which would benefit the poorer. Instead they get inot bed with the Tory party who will two-time them big time.

Ghost - loads of people disliked the EU prior to all that. It might not have been on your radar but they were there.

I put this link on one of the other threads but it got overtaken by all the comment on TB.

It's interesting because it explains the point made by lord Dubbs on AQ (shouted down by Douglas carswell) - ie that freedom of movement (under both Rome and Lisbon treaties) means 'freedom of movement to work' - not freedom of movement whether you work or not.

www.socialeurope.eu/2017/02/taking-initiative-europe-respond-brexit/

It won't be until we're out, and enough time has passed to make this blaming impossible, that UK governments will have to stand on their own merits.

Governments operate in the short term not the long. Quick wins. Sell off council houses get the working class vote. Quick win. Disaster 25 years later.

I sometimes wonder why leavers and remainers aren't marching together to campaign for £350million a week for the NHS? That's what I mean about finding areas of common interest that could influence the government to write it into A50.

Remainers said it was bollocks from day one. Everyone else seems to have voted for reasons-not-related-to-said-bus.

People are marching against leaving, not for what they want to see in A50.

They don't want to see A50 they are marching because it will be a disaster.