To wonder if there are any Leave voters who actually are having second thoughts about Brexit

[Bearbehind]

Following Tony Blairs call for Remainers to convince Leavers to change their mind I'm wondering if there are actually any Leavers who are worried and might prefer us not to be going in the direction we are heading.

From what I've seen Leavers are more determined than ever and really don't seem in the slightest bit concerned about any negative repercussions so they're not going to be swayed.

Who is Blair aiming his comments at?

Former, I live in a very middle class area which also happens to be extremely diverse. There were 39 different mother tongues spoken by children at my dd's primary school. Some of us relish the diversity.

I think that's because it's a middle class area, Broken

It's easy to be tolerant when your life isn't adversely affected in any way.

do you think your above post would make someone likely to nod and smile and say 'ah, ok, you're right,' or to think 'not on my watch' and vote Leave?

They voted leave as we know. Unfortunately they'll get nothing in return. Globalisation is here to stay. If a job was shit and poorly paid in June 2016 it will still be shit and poorly paid in 2020. TV's will still be made in China and T'shirts in Bangladesh. Brits will still be buying them.

Birdy - er, the Trump mocking is unkind.

Brokenbiscuit- completely agree. I think Brexit will be a disaster for the economy, I just can't stand the mocking (see above ) of people who voted differently.

Perhaps if successive governments had not blamed their own policy failings on the EU, then some of the voting public would not have blamed them either.

And if lack of education is an issue re impacting the knowledge people had to vote with, how is ridiculing those voters fair?

The one good thing about coming out, is that eventually, UK governments will no longer be able to blame the EU for their failings, and we can hold them to account for their actions.

I would vote leave again a heartbeat.

Blair wants is to stay in as he wants Junckers job in 2019, and will treat the Brexit process as a 'look at me' job interview. Either that, or he'll be after the NATO gig when Stoltenberg goes.

Lastly, people do feel a sense of identity and belonging has been eroded by very high levels of immigration and indeed this has happened - Peckham, as it stands, is now unrecognisable from its 1980s backdrop of Only Fools and Horses.

That's always been the way in London though, look at Brick Lane; it was mainly French in the 17th century, then Jewish, Irish, Bangladeshi, now hipster.

It's easy to be tolerant when your life isn't adversely affected in any way.

Indeed, but I was responding to a comment about middle class people moving away from change and diversity.

And while it's easy to be tolerant when your life isn't adversely affected, it's also easy to be intolerant and scapegoat others unfairly when your life is difficult. That doesn't necessarily mean that those others who you have scapegoated are the actual cause of your misery.

I know, Ghost - and you wanted us to remain, unless I've gravely misunderstood. So how would you address someone's concerns that the community they recognised had been eroded?

Because like it or not, this is what is meant by 'not listening' (and I don't mean you, Ghost)

These complaints remainers have

• we are nearly 50% of the population and we're being told to suck it up
• no one is discussing it with us, we're just being told 'Brexit means brexit'
• I'm sure I have a really good point here, and no one will engage
• my life is going to look worse, so will my family's life, and I can't get anyone to listen

They are the complaints many 'ordinary' people had for YEARS prior to the referendum.

I still don't think some (Blair) are seeing it.

I think the huge surge in population did contribute to the rapid rise of house prices, to be honest, Ghost

we've heard alot about "thinking" (and "feeling") in the last 8 months though and very little evidence from the leave side.

Anyway, research has shown that some of the strongest anti-immigrant sentiment is in the areas where there are the fewest immigrants.

Creampinkrose - totally agree. I was one of them not listening and now I feel ashamed.

Broken, absolutely, but that isn't really the answer either. I abhor racism, and would never defend it.

However, a concern about immigration levels adversely effecting matters is not racism.

Ghost, was it a coincidence, then? :)

It is indeed Broken, and it's interesting. I think it's worth remembering that low immigration doesn't mean no immigration: my own town has low immigration levels compared to the UK as a whole, but still very high by the standards of that town, if you follow me. When I went to school here, our diversity levels consisted of the grand total of one boy of Chinese heritage. Comparatively, now, our immigration levels are high - even though nationally they are not.

However, a concern about immigration levels adversely effecting matters is not racism.

I agree but I believe it is cuts and poor planning that have led to poor services rather than immigration.

I agree that immigrants are in no way personally to blame, but I do feel that the density of our population is leading to many, many problems. That being said, I am also rolling my eyes at the cuts so we do agree on that :)

The right wing Tory party and right wing press (champions of the working class and people on benefit indeed) are only happy to be out of the EU so they don't have to adhere to legislation and directives protecting workers rights. Soon the whole of the UK will be on 0 hour contracts and the NHS will be privatised and benefits scapped as the country cannot afford it

The right wing Tory party and right wing press (champions of the working class and people on benefit indeed) are only happy to be out of the EU so they don't have to adhere to legislation and directives protecting workers rights. Soon the whole of the UK will be on 0 hour contracts and the NHS will be privatised and benefits scapped as the country cannot afford it

^^ This is exactly my concern. I really can't see how being out of the EU is better for yer average worker.

But then there are also strong arguments for exiting the EU from the left. It transcends parties, really. I don't think we can say staying or leaving can be tied to any one particular party - well, apart from UKIP, obviously.

One of the arguments i repeatedly heard in the run up to the referendum was 'I am voting to stay because I don't want Cameron being unaccountable' which, given Cameron's strong desire to stay in the EU, seemed odd to me.

Caprianna, absolutely. We are heading for financial meltdown.

I still think that failure to understand what motivated huge swathes of people to vote leave, has caused massive division and fighting between ourselves.

Would it not be more productive to accept the vote and try to work to make sure peoples' concerns (both remainers and leavers) are addressed via amendments to A50.

I think so, Penelope.

Realistically, something that divides the country almost (but not quite) in half is always going to result in a certain amount of bad feeling, but I do think that a compromise exists. However, I think Blair has probably succeeded in sending yet more to UKIP.

I know, Ghost - and you wanted us to remain, unless I've gravely misunderstood. So how would you address someone's concerns that the community they recognised had been eroded?

I did vote remain and there are no easy answers to your question because I fear that ship has sailed. The Tories ushered in neo liberalism and globalisation that rendered tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs redundant. What followed was generation to generation living in these areas with no hope or opportunity. They were Labour areas but when you are in permanent opposition (80's and 90's) and the Tories feed the feckless scrounger narrative to the press there is little you can do.

The Tories will never take responsibility for their actions or policies so rather than facing the facts about the above a scapegoat is found (EU/migrants). We get a referendum were the marginalised have a 50/50 chance of having their say (much better than first past the post) and here we are. The marginalised wanting their reward for voting out and the Tories showing no indication that they will deliver regeneration to deprived areas. Just like the 80's and 90's then.

I'd like to add the migrants are either doing skilled jobs likes lecturing and medicine or poorer paid work. The latter will always be poorly paid regardless of who is doing it. Start banging the drum for higher wages and multinationals go elsewhere. That is globalisation. Heavy industry isn't coming back, supermarket work was never well paid so the smart money is on education - professional work and joining the engaged, multi cultural workforce. A door that has no been shut for young Brits thanks to Brexit!

Would it not be more productive to accept the vote and try to work to make sure peoples' concerns (both remainers and leavers) are addressed via amendments to A50.

So what happened to the amendments the other night when Parliament voted? All of them defeated. Only one Tory MP had the guts to vote against A50. Some Labour did, but not enough. So where is the productive working together going to come from?

Would it not be more productive to accept the vote and try to work to make sure peoples' concerns (both remainers and leavers) are addressed via amendments to A50.

In theory, yes but all amendments in HOC were quashed and Leavers are outright refusing to admit to having any concerns so that makes any discussions more than a little one sided.

They are the complaints many 'ordinary' people had for YEARS prior to the referendum.
I still don't think some (Blair) are seeing it.

Well, that's because its not the whole story is it?

Areas with large immigration voted to remain. Areas with low immigration voted leave. Everyone likes to talk about the lost-behind communities who massively voted Brexit. They don't like to talk so much about how young people voted Remain and the masses of elderly people in very prosperous parts of the country who voted Brexit.

The problem is not that remainers haven't seen anything. The big problem is that some leavers still don't understand that leaving the EU will not solve their (very real) problems: in fact, it is going to make the vast majority of people's lives worse not better.

Whilst I feel you made a number of valid points, Ghost, what does 'taking responsibility for their actions' mean? I agree fully we cannot turn back the clock, but going forwards, there might just be a better way.

I think the problem is there is a standoff, if you like, between two left wing views that just aren't compatible. One is that we are liberal and non racist, therefore immigration is welcomed, no questions asked. The second is that we want the country to be one with significant amounts of welfare spending: on the NHS, on schools, on care for the elderly, on benefits for those in need and on housing.

The problem is, the latter cannot lie easily with the former. Your last paragraph - 'the latter will always be poorly paid regardless of who is doing it' - isn't necessarily true (I wish it was!) Take caring for the elderly as an example - if staff cannot be found to wipe bottoms, feed, wash and dress, if the nations grannies and grandads were lying in their own waste, hungry and cold - those owning care homes and domiciliary care agencies would find the means to tempt staff in. The reverse is also true - that if people are prepared to work anti social hours in difficult and stressful situations, for minimum wage (in U.K. terms, not EU terms) - then they won't be offered more.