Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Boris and The By-Elections

985 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2017 19:49

You lot post too fast!

A50 has made it out of the Commons without any amends. Its on its way to the Lords, but this week is half term, so in theory not much going on (in the UK at least). It hit the Lords on the 20th where it might not get such an easy ride. The Lords will not (and CAN NOT) stop brexit or frustrate it. But the numbers are in perhaps more favour of amendments if they choose to go that way, than the Commons. This would throw the bill back to the Commons. This is pretty reasonable.

In the meantime its 12 days to go until the Copeland and Stoke Central By-Elections.

Leave.Eu think UKIP have Stoke in the bag. They think there will be a 33% turnout. I think a turnout that high is the land of fantasy. Paul Nuttalls who was at Hillsborough is now a devout Stokie who has lived there all his life. Except of course he isn't.

Copeland looks like it will go Conservative. Its theirs to throw away. It would be the first victory for a sitting government in a by-election since 1983 if they make it. They intend to use a victory as another argument for a 'mandate'. But have they managed to drop a nuclear booboo?

One more Question. What are the chances of this thread making it to the 23rd?!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
LurkingHusband · 15/02/2017 09:15

mathanxiety

The more telling reporting from O'Rourke was that in the 1980s, both sides admitted to a acceptable level of violence - i.e. there were a certain number if casualties the UK government was prepared to up with.

That's little people casualties of course - certainly there is an argument to be had that the Brighton bomb was at least targeting the right people.

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 09:19

It's this business of the right kind of terrorist again isn't it?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 09:50

Ipsos mori poll today about what people think is the most important issue facing the country.

LAST MONTH it said:
NHS/Hospitals/Healthcare - 40 (+8)
European Union/Europe/Brexit - 36 (-3)
Immigration/immigrants - 36 (+1)
Economy - 25 (-1)
Poverty/Inequality - 20 (+6)
Housing 19 (+1)
Schools - 18 (+1)
Unemployment - 13 (-1)
Crime/law and order/ASB - 13 (+2)
Defence/foreign affairs/terrorism - 12 (-1)

THIS month it says:
NHS/Hospitals/Healthcare - 49 (+9)
European Union/Europe/Brexit - 41 (+5)
Immigration/immigrants - 31 (-5)
Economy - 22 (-3)
Housing 17 (-2)
Unemployment - 16 (+3)
Schools - 15 (-3)
Poverty/Inequality - 14 (-6)
Social Care - 11 (+2)
Defence/foreign affairs/terrorism - 11 (-1)

Some interesting changes in there. Things to keep an eye on.

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 15/02/2017 09:53

I wonder (a) if Paul Nuttalls is an Oscar Wilde fan (somehow I doubt it) and, in fact (b) if Paul Nuttalls has ever heard of Oscar Wilde ?

seems too easy ....

Paul Nuttalls cured Oscar Wilde of homosexuality and encouraged him to work on translating "The Karma Sutra" into Gaelic. #paulnuttallFacts

Motheroffourdragons · 15/02/2017 09:54

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

GraceGrape · 15/02/2017 09:57

Looking at that MORI poll, to put it crudely, I don't think there will be a significant change in people's views of Brexit until the polls show the issue of the economy becomes more important than the issue of immigration in people's minds.

LurkingHusband · 15/02/2017 10:01

I'm quite impressed with the restraint of MNetters, that no one has yet mentioned Paul Nuttalls alarming resemblance to "Eddie Bastard" as portrayed by Adrian Edmonson (on the right here, with the much missed Rik Mayall)

Westministenders: Boris and The By-Elections
RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 10:02

livesrunning.wordpress.com/2016/11/28/my-student-the-anti-semite/
My student; theanti-Semite

Blog about Paul Nuttall. Dated November. I have no way of knowing if its true or not, but I find this final paragraph particularly interesting.

I met Nuttall to discuss what he had written and he gave a tearful denial, saying that his girlfriend had downloaded the references to Irving’s book from the internet, blaming her rather than his own judgment. He accepted that the words could be construed as having an unpleasant, even racist meaning. But he denied that this had been his intention. He seemed shocked to be challenged about anything – like smug, arrogant, people everywhere he was most comfortable in a small bubble where no-one could disagree with him.

Nuttall's (female) press officer has been blamed for his Hillsborough close personal friend comments. She offered her resignation which Nuttall has now refused to accept. Comments it appears Nuttall seems to have repeated to the BBC.

Is this fake news or an emerging pattern?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 10:10

GraceGrape, give it time. If my gut feeling is right, it will happen. Its just a matter of time. Look at the increase in worries over employment. The two go hand in hand.

Also if my gut is right, the government will not be able to wait it out until 2020 and a new Tory Party Manifesto where they can throw in an NHS bus.

Something will break first.

Polls are not showing Brexit regret in any way. I personally don't expect them to. At least not a significant amount. Too much pride and too close to the event still.

Any doubts will show creeping in on other issues first.

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 15/02/2017 10:12

Nuttall's (female) press officer has been blamed for his Hillsborough close personal friend comments. She offered her resignation which Nuttall has now refused to accept.

So the net effect is ... fuck all ? Is this a new trope we will see ? Someone is caught out. A lackey is lined up for the chop, and the person whose integrity has been demonstrated to be absent then gets a shot at a Disney-type "I'm too noble to accept your resignation" moment ????

Modern living is starting to make me feel physically ill Sad.

We are living in interesting times (shakes fist at China).

GloriaGaynor · 15/02/2017 10:15

Perhaps the only way to tie those two contradictory positions together was by conjuring an image of Britain at height of its imperial powers ready to dominate the globe again. I'm not sure what it's going to take to wake people up from this very comforting dream.

Failure. When you sell a lie and and things fail to transpire the way you say they will, the illusion and the regime falls apart.

Badders123 · 15/02/2017 10:16

Good point red.
Too much pride and hubris to admit you made a mistake just yet....
Those polls make VERY interesting reading.
Once people realise the economic fallout to them personally the poll data will be very interesting.

ElenaGreco123 · 15/02/2017 10:20

Just read Toshiba's statement about the planned nuclear power station in Cumbria. Translation: we would very much like to get involved just not with money.
Why is the government not fretting, travelling to Japan, reassuring locals, making all sorts of statements? Don't they care?!

LurkingHusband · 15/02/2017 10:25

Why is the government not fretting, travelling to Japan, reassuring locals, making all sorts of statements? Don't they care?!|

is that a penny dropping ?

Peregrina · 15/02/2017 10:26

What exactly was the question about Brexit?

I think it's the most important issue facing us at present, but it doesn't mean that I am in favour of it.
I am angry that there are so many issues which do need resolution and this is taking resources away from them.

ElenaGreco123 · 15/02/2017 10:35

I know, I know lurking, but they do not even pretend now 1 week before a by-election in the area which they could win.

howabout · 15/02/2017 10:35

I think the UK pinning its hopes on Toshiba at the moment, Brexit or not, would be a bit foolhardy. As is oft pointed out on this thread the UK is not the epicentre of many multinational conglomerates.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38456275

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 10:36

The question is simply which do you think are the most important issues facing the UK at the moment.

This means a reply about Brexit could reveal concern from both Leavers and Remainers from very different angles. Its not the answer that says very much for this reason. Shifts in concern don't say why or how they are concerned.

Concerns about other issues are more interesting particularly as Leave used other issues and tied them to immigration as a deliberate strategy.

OP posts:
HashiAsLarry · 15/02/2017 10:44

lh I was only thinking the last night about Nutalls. Decided it may be insulting to Ade Edmonsdon though Grin

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 11:46

This is a bit left field and out there, but its not the hokum it may initially appear when you start reading it. (Also worth keeping in mind that its written by an American with an Anonymous background on twitter). It has relevance to a few things happening here though. Worth sticking with and reading. Immigration and Brexit fit in well with it.

We are all vulnerable to this type of psychology. It is being deliberately exploited in politics and the press at the moment. Its radicalisation of inner fears into political ideologies. Significant elements of the Trump and Brexit movements are cult like in behaviour and language (plenty of intelligent people end up in cults). It is incredibly difficult to deal with, without creating alternative ideologies, solutions and understanding the sources that drive it. (See how efforts to tackle Islamic terrorism by governments too frequently backfire). It requires tackling from the ground up, by tackling small pieces of the puzzle so eventually the pieces of the imagined jigsaw no longer fit together and it shatters the whole illusion.

1/ A thread on the issue of the stand-alone complex, as requested by a follower.
2/ The stand alone complex is a hard concept to find on Google, unless you're after the anime/graphic novel/movie after which it is named
3/ So, a set of definitions

Stand Alone Complex
A phenomenon when a collection of similar, but unrelated, behavior by unconnected individuals creates a seemingly concerted effort.
The internet group 'Anonymous' is considered by some to be a Stand Alone Complex
Accidental collectivism made up of detached individuals, resembling a highly organized conspiracy and lacking a deliberate origin.
A Stand Alone Complex is usually observed after a major incident such as a murder. People decide to follow the behaviour of a person, be it fictional or real. It also describes teamwork in which all the involved members share a common goal and information, but work alone to achieve it in their own way.
Anonymous share information via image boards and other mediums. They have a single goal yet each member works of their own accord. There is no hierarchy and so are a real example of a Stand Alone Complex

Phenomenon where in behavior by unconnected individuals creates a seemingly concentrated effort. This behavior is copied from a previous source without an original. In short Stand alone complex is multiple copies of a behavior, object, view, ect, existing without an original.

4/ As you can see from the slightly differing, but largely converging, definitions, there's a few elements involved which come together
5/ Actors in stand alone complex:

  • pareidolia
  • "monkey see monkey do"
  • media
  • group psychology

Similar things exist with these elements
6/ Para- what? What- eidolia? Pareidolia is the capacity for the mind to make up stories based on patterns which otherwise would confuse us
7/ This video shows a couple of innocent examples & how powerful this capacity really is:

8/ But, sometimes this capacity for a mass of people to see chimeras can influence politics, as explained here:

Here’s how the principle works in real life. During the early ‘80s, a group of women in Orange County, California, were convinced that the dark forces of “secular humanism” were using elementary school textbooks to destroy their children’s minds. The women’s groups was certain that the godless foes of true religion were trying to swamp their youngsters with brain-crippling pornography.

To find out if their suspicions were true, the women’s group members examined the illustrations in the local school’s textbooks through a microscope. Sure enough, they discovered minuscule pictures hidden subliminally on the pages. These microscopic images portrayed women with naked, nippled breasts and men with enormous erections. The outraged mothers actually succeeded in getting some of the textbook illustrations changed on the basis of their “discovery”.

But where, in reality, did the pictures of the naked men and women lie? Not in the printed pages, but in the minds of the women peering through the microscopes. Like Marigold Linton, the psychologist who “forgot” the events in her own life that humiliated her, the microscope-wielding religionist threw a mental sheet over their sexual impulses, hiding them from view. They they conceived an enemy – the secular humanist – roiling with forbidden sexuality and working in devious ways to insert sex into their innocent children’s lives. The only way to prevent this intrusion was to be eternally vigilant, perpetually on the lookout for the humanists’ sexual invasion. By searching for the humanist danger, the clubwomen of Orange County managed to keep their thoughts focused on sex. But this sexual obsession, they could now tell themselves, was not their fault. It was the fault of their sex-crazed enemy, without whom sexuality would never have crossed their minds.

Of such rejected pieces of ourselves are our devils made.

9/ Page 70 - 71, The Lucifer Principle, (c). 2000 Howard Bloom (PDF version)
10/ Now, imagine the women from California mentioned above had convinced some people from Arizona of the same thing & it spread from there
11/ Or another factor of the Internet age - trolling - had been possible. In either case, feeding a chimera'd start a real-world phenomena
12/ The existence of Anonymous may come to mind re: the stand alone complex, but the far Right has a similar version

13/ As you can tell, the stand alone complex can be a force for destruction, & surveillance of it has been suggested
www.reflectionsofthevoid.com/2015/01/terrorism-and-emergence-of-stand-alone.html

14/ This insight into how we visualise maps (assuming I can explain what I mean here) offers a solution to the ignorant mob potential

Which of these statements are true?
Madrid is farther north than Washington DC
Seattle is farther north than Montreal
Portland, Oregon, is further north than Toronto
Reno is farther west than San Diego
The Atlantic entrance to the Panama Canal is farther West than the Pacific entrance

They are all true. Almost everyone get them wrong, reasoning along these lines. Nevada is east of California. San Diego is in Californa, Reno is in Nevada, therefore Reno is east of San Diego. Of course this kind of syllogism is invalid whenever regions don’t form a checkerboard. Our geographic knowledge is not a big mental map but a set of smaller maps, organised by assertions about how they are related.

15/ Pages 295 - 296, How The Mind Works, (c.) 1997 Steven Pinker, 1998 Softback Preview edition
16/ Just as one may mistakenly think Japan's south of Korea due to their world map being a melding of smaller maps, so we build a worldview
17/ A copycat incident can only copy what the imitator thinks has happened, which may have come from an unreliable source, for instance
18/ Similarly, the ladies of Orange County could only assume of secular humanists what their magazines & church group told them.
19/ So if such groups fit together, fully formed in their attitude to the world, or a new "discovery" is bolted onto old ideas, then what?
20/ Well, the fan of Gilles Deleuze is probably thinking "rhizomatic structures form," which they do, but that's trodden turf already.
21/ What else? The Taipeng Rebellion A fever dream led a Chinaman to see Jesus & his imperial destiny. He temporarily formed his own kingdom
22/ One group of people who thought Jesus had called them, combined with another group who thought they could replace the Qing dynasty
23/ Their timing could be better- the British Empire couldn't wait for the Taipengs to destroy Chinese rule on their behalf
24/ Why did so many say "I believe in your Heavenly Kingdom too!" when before they didn't? Were they just copying him to ride his wave?
25/ Is every member of ISIS an al-Baghdadi in waiting? Is every adamant Trump fan hoping to be him? Likely not all, or many, of them.
26/ Or Hillary, Stein, or Sanders for that matter.
27/ Another- several Moslems were attacked by civilians 5-14 days after police raid which found one terrorist.
www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-30/as-it-happened-counter-terrorism-raids-in-melbourne/5778208?pfmredir=sm

28/ Confucius said civilians imitate the leaders, but in case I just mentioned, what if the civilians can't even tell Islam from terrorism?
29/ Since we mostly lack research on the stand alone complex from others & I lacked time to think before threading, I'll leave you with that

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 11:57

Don't the repressed women of Orange County in denial about their sexuality sound a lot like someone who says "I'm not racist but"?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 12:11

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/truth-behind-brexit-hate-crime-spike/
The truth behind the Brexit hate crime ‘spike’

This is an attempt to say that Hate crime isn't happening and the referendum hasn't fuelled problems.

I don't disagree that the referendum changed how likely things were to be reported. It doesn't mean that the spike didn't happen though either. There is greater sensitivity as a part of how society is functioning.

However

If you feel like this epidemic of hate doesn’t tally with your experience of life in Blighty in 2016, you aren’t alone. There is a great disparity between the handwringing over hate crime and what Britain is actually like. The open racism even I can remember in the 1980s has all but vanished. Racist chants at football matches are a distant memory. Hard-right, foreigner-bashing parties may be thriving on the Continent, but they are dying over here. The likes of the BNP and EDL have withered due to lack of interest. This is a British triumph.

If this doesn't fit with your experience, perhaps it is because you aren't the victim of such things in the first place and never were. The stereotype of racism being what thugs do isn't there anymore and its socially acceptable to think similar things and live in Maidenhead or Hastings instead. Its been normalised rather than lying at the fringes of society. The idea that foreigner bashing parties are dying when we have a government who are doing it, is utterly, utterly bizarre.

Would you like a copy of the Daily Mail to read?

(This type of thing boils my piss).

OP posts:
HashiAsLarry · 15/02/2017 12:39

Wrt to the hate crime spike, I do think some people have an ability to tune it out better than others. DH has missed things I've seen, has been shocked when dc have asked what certain things mean as he had no clue someone near him had just said something. He hears now though, since a family friend was attacked.

And the racist football chants haven't disappeared - bollocks. Yes they've lessened, yes they're rare, but they still happen. It wasn't too long ago someone hurled a banana at a black player.

I'll read the long post later rtb. Looks very interesting on a quick skim.

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2017 12:45

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-leader-paul-nuttall-rise-in-hate-crimes-a7560381.html
Paul Nuttall claims spike in hate crimes following Brexit is 'fabricated'
Exclusive:Ukip leader says incidents have been ‘overblown’in an attempt to ‘rubbish Brexit’

Not just the Spectator at it. Also Nuttall.

Didn't the first variant of the story appear on the Freedom Association website at the end of Jan... ?

OP posts:
lalalonglegs · 15/02/2017 12:59

Bollocks that there wasn't a rise in hate crime post-referendum. I know people who have had comments made and insults thrown and had never had a single issue prior to June 23rd. Rather than trying to deny it has happened, perhaps Pants on Fire Nuttalls and the right-wingers at the Spectator could think about how or why the Leave victory made it ok, how they themselves and the language they used might have contributed to the xenophobia (usual clarifications that I don't think all Leavers are racists etc). This la-la-la it's not happening attitude does my head in and has a sinister undertone: racism/xenophobia doesn't really exist, it's just made up by people who want to undermine our point of view and/or "play the race card" Hmm.

Swipe left for the next trending thread