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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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Peregrina · 11/02/2017 11:05

My DIL made the comments about a year before the Referendum. Sadly for black and mixed race people, casual racism is the norm.

boredofbrexit · 11/02/2017 11:05

Yes if you complete the sentence with 'and the fascist left are aggrieved by this'

lalalonglegs · 11/02/2017 11:09

Peregrina - thanks for the Michael Rosen poem Flowers.

Peregrina · 11/02/2017 11:10

She should have taken out UK citizenship.

At one time a woman marrying a British man would have automatically been able to claim British citizenship. This was one thing I asked DS about. Why was it necessary for DIL to go through the citizenship procedure? The law was quietly changed a few years back.

boredofbrexit · 11/02/2017 11:10

Maybe it is a left leaning middle class thing though, this 'taking offence'?

My family are about as mixed a bag as one could ever imagine, in terms of nationality, ability, religion, culture, sexuality, financial status, maritial status, how our kids are brought up and educated...we all just get on with it, we are family, we are who we are.

HashiAsLarry · 11/02/2017 11:11

Left-wing fascism and left fascism are sociological and philosophical terms used to categorise real or perceived tendencies in extreme left-wing politics otherwise commonly attributed to the ideology of Fascism. Fascism has historically been considered a far right ideology, but crossovers may be expected according to the theory of extremes meet (French: Les extrêmes se touchent), where the touching point between the far left and the far right may be the use of power and/or political terrorism.
And here lies Brexit, where the hard right and the hard left combine for a hard outcome.

boredofbrexit · 11/02/2017 11:12

Peregrina...and rightly so, I wouldn't want decisions concerning me being made based upon my husbandAngry

Peregrina · 11/02/2017 11:14

Peregrina...and rightly so, I wouldn't want decisions concerning me being made based upon my husband

My point was, how many people realised that the law had been changed?

SemiPermanent · 11/02/2017 11:15

Sometimes it's conversational small talk, and sometimes it's hostility, and you can usually tell the difference.

yes, I agree.
And also what you said about casual racism being the norm - it's awful.

NotDavidTennant · 11/02/2017 11:17

I enjoyed these threads when they started up, but I feel like there's no place for moderate voices anymore. You either have to think that Brexit is the best thing since sliced bread or that the country has been taken over in a far right coup.

What started out as relatively sober and informed analysis of news and events as they happened seems to becoming more and more polarised towards the extremes of opinion.

Peregrina · 11/02/2017 11:25

You either have to think that Brexit is the best thing since sliced bread or that the country has been taken over in a far right coup

DH and I were having a discussion on similar lines the other night - was the country becoming fascist? We thought, not yet, but worrying signs were there - more like the Germany of the 1920s rather than the 1930s. We felt that we needed to learn from their experience and both speak out against racism and xenophobia but also try to do positive acts.

CeciledeVolanges · 11/02/2017 11:25

Morning all,

I acknowledge that I've had my part in this (no defence but I've been working quite late, especially for a temp job) and contributed to the generally higher levels of hostility, but everyone is stressed and worried and families are fighting and let's try to take this back to where it was before, a place of reasoned discussion? I am happy to hear from everyone and for my part I have to say if anyone has reasons why leaving is going to be good that are backed by evidence bring them on, please! Otherwise have a happy weekend everyone.

SemiPermanent · 11/02/2017 11:26

NotDavidTennant, I'm guilty of being massively pro-Brexit - I honestly do like to read the links etc that are posted from the other viewpoint though.

I would hate for moderate voices from either side or those straddling the middle to not be heard as they are the truest reflection of the majority voice really - and living in an extreme bubble on either side is not good for anyone.

HashiAsLarry · 11/02/2017 11:30

not its perfectly possible to hold the belief that there's a middle ground way through this mess and acknowledge the turn of the government further towards the right. They're not mutually exclusive.

RedAndYellowStripe · 11/02/2017 11:33

There is no such thing as an EU citizen. The EU is not a country and cannot have citizens.

This is an interesting comment that shows how different people feel about Europe.
There are people in the uk who openly say they feel and then European before feeling British.
On main land Europe, i have met plenty of people for who being European is a sentiment just as strong as feeling .

And then yes yu have people for who this idea of being European just doesn't exist at all. It's a paper construct but they don't feel they belong to that thing called Europe.

And then you also have the EU proposing the possibility of a European citizenship that would be open to al British people that would want to take it. Therefore really talking about such a thing as a European citizen just like you have a British citizen or a polish citizen.

Maybbe what we see here is the way that Europe has evolved to become a real entity as such, much like a (federal?) country. And some people feel they are part of it and some people don't.
Maybe in the same way that some people feel British first and some don't??

Kaija · 11/02/2017 11:37

Why would the fact that the woman who wrote the blog uses cloth nappies etc make her piece "self-indulgent"? This makes no sense.

SemiPermanent · 11/02/2017 11:38

Did anyone watch the BBC doc by Katya Adler on the EU?

RedAndYellowStripe · 11/02/2017 11:39

NotDavid I think people are scared. And it's hard to be reasonnable in your argument when you are scared.

I know I have since this referendum. Moving from being totally panicked or feeling very angry to this feeling of 'the rabbit caught in the headlight'.

What a lot of people see is a slow but noticeable movement towards something not very nice (maybe like I did feel a movement, slow but noticeable towards xenophobia a couple of years before the referendum itself). If this is what you see, then it is VERY scary indeed.

NotDavidTennant · 11/02/2017 11:52

I just think we need to be careful about the language that is used. Theresa May is on the right, there's no doubt about that, but she is within mainstream conservative thought - she is not of the "far right". If we use "far right" about May then what happens when someone comes along who is genuinely "far right"? Why would anyone listen then, when we have bandied about the term so casually now?

NotDavidTennant · 11/02/2017 11:54

Or when people talk about a "mini coup". Using that phrase about the current situation simply trivialises the concept of a coup.

Fawful · 11/02/2017 12:02

She should have taken out UK citizenship.
This thread is full of immigrants from other EU countries ( or their families) moaning because they do not like the way the British citizens voted. It beggars belief.

How silent would you like us to be, trying? Completely? Should we be shuffling along back to where we belong while looking at the ground?
Re: the far right, that's what the Tory party conference speeches pointed to. What do we call a party that wants to name and shame companies that hire foreigners? We wouldn't be calling May far-right if it hadn't been for those speeches.

Peregrina · 11/02/2017 12:02

but she is within mainstream conservative thought

What her personal beliefs are, are something of a mystery to me, but at the moment she appears to be only interested in what I first heard ex-Tories refer to as BlueKIP. This is the 40 odd or so MPs , who can and often do hold racist views.

So far we have only had Ken Clarke, John Bercow and the ex MP Stephen Phillips speaking out against it.

HashiAsLarry · 11/02/2017 12:08

I have to agree with peregrina. I do believe the government are showing a massive inclination towards the far right. Could they go further right? Well, yes they could. But does that mean we should stay quiet until that happens? How late is too late?

Fawful · 11/02/2017 12:10

This thread is full of vermin immigrants from other EU countries ( or their families) moaning
... And we have no intention to stop. Hth.

Peregrina · 11/02/2017 12:10

We wouldn't be calling May far-right if it hadn't been for those speeches.

We managed to get an admission that the Home Office was using NHS and Schools data to track down illegal immigrants - despite saying that the information was not being collected for this purpose.

Again, Theresa May, whilst at the Home Office wanted the children of such immigrants to go to the bottom of the list when school places were allocated. Children, who have no say in the accident of their place of birth. Nicky Morgan protested about this, and TM didn't get her way.

Much more recently her failure to speak out against Trumps 'anti-Muslim' ban. She had to have a statement dragged out of her and even then it was more concerned with appeasing Trump IMO, than saying that such bans are not acceptable in a civilised country (one which has freedom of worship in its Constitution.)

This is why some of us feel that it's the thin end of the wedge.