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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris and his friends hand in their homework to be marked.

990 replies

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2017 14:10

The last week has been depressing for a lot of people.

Even if you are happy about the vote in the Commons, there is a worrying lack of backbone in MPs of all shades.

Then there’s what is going on in the USA which I’m going to quietly ignore in this post except to say that cosying up to Trump still could backfire on all who do for numerous reasons.

It seems like its all over in someways, but there is still plenty going on.

The A50 Bill has only passed stage one. The Government’s deliberate publishing of the White Paper after the vote has left a lot of people with egg all over their face.

Plus its just crap. Actually its not crap. It’s a dog dinner of farcical proportions with no content, faulty data and incorrect details that an A-Level Student did the night before their assignment was due, masquerading as an official government document.

Now its amendment time, which is the serious bit. For an amendment to make it, it will need cross party support. After the government failed to produce a White Paper worth the paper it was written on, and insulted the intelligence of the House of Commons, that could get interesting.

For starters the White Paper says that EU citizens are one of our best bargaining chips. Trouble is a lot of Tory and Labour MPs don’t agree.

In short there is a fair old chance of a government defeat next week at some point. The government don’t want any. Especially not this early. I really think it will be very difficult for the government to provide the assurance MPs will want, even if they crack the whip. They have lost the trust of too many. In voting for the first vote, many MPs will feel they have shown their intent to support leaving and now will get busy on trying to hammer down the details.

Highlights include of the White Paper include the idea that we will still be subject to the ECJ except we won’t. This is ridiculous. We will be subject to ECJ rulings but not be subject to ECJ rulings directly. Eh? What? (Not that we didn’t see this coming). There’s Euroatom and the government doing an impression of Homer Simpson. With a by-election in Copeland on the cards. That story has some time to keep running. As Steve Peers points out, the Leprechauns are going to sort out Northern Ireland for us which is a great political strategy to employ.

Its full of lots of other utter bollocks but those particular points are the ones that are potentially the most problematic for the government. If you don’t think the White Paper screams we are going to get eaten alive by the EU and Trump, you need to get off the hallucinogenics pronto.

If that isn’t awe inspiring enough we also have:

The wonderful mental image of Paul Nuttall kipping on a mattress in a house in Stoke disparately pretending to be a Stokie, nervously hoping that letterbox rattling in the wind isn’t C4 letterbox again and that the coppers don’t pay him a visit in the near future. I confess that whilst my imagination has been kept busy with this, I am disappointed in the lack of video clips of him munching on an Oatcake in a Stoke City shirt, sitting on an Armitage Shanks throne, turning his plate over whilst listening to Robbie Williams and with a Titanic by his side. All at the same time. I think he’s missed a few tricks.

AND

Diane Abbott doing quite possibly even more damage to Labour than them merely rolling over and dying over a50 by pulling a sickie. Her ‘Brexit Flu’ damages the party’s image and Corbyn himself even more. If that’s even possible. Some Labour MPs have demanded an apology.

Labour is starting to look like it’s a ship with rats fleeing this week. MPs have defied a three line whip and quite the Shadow Cabinet (Again). Rumours are that over 7000 members have left. A councillor has defected to the Lib Dems. There was a council by election in Rotherham where Lab lost a seat to the LDs in an area where there has never been as many people vote LD. Nor were there as many remain voters as LD voters. The Parliamentary vote for Unite’s new leader has unsurprisingly selected the anti-Corbyn candidate Gerald Coyne over Len McCluskey. The bookies have dropped the odds on Corbyn leaving Labour before a GE from 6/1 to 2/1 overnight. Oh and Red Ed is being rumoured to be returning to the front bench…

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boredofbrexit · 03/02/2017 21:40

i dunno, it was your suggestion...you must know what you meant. oh of course not, silly me, just got the wrong idea. wrong idea, wrong vote, wrong thread. Bye

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Kaija · 03/02/2017 21:42

Or did you mean the leavers' medals? Well no, obviously, it would be more like a souvenir to commemorate the achievement, to keep in the drawer next to your blue passport...

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Peregrina · 03/02/2017 21:42

I don't like the idea of major parties not putting up candidates in elections. The Tories and UKIP looked extremely cynical in Richmond Park when they didn't stand against a so called Independent. Much better to do as Labour did and have a candidate, but as obviously must have happened on the QT Labour voters decided to vote tactically.

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RedToothBrush · 03/02/2017 21:43

Is that the sound of a cage rattling already? It didn't take long did it?!

Mention MPs who have a problem with women and have done things to actively scupper bills about domestic violence and you get someone turn up who is drawn to particular threads and talks about how men don't get equality over domestic abuse.

Odd eh?

Good stuff. Nice to see people are paying attention.

Grin

About that swamp...

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boredofbrexit · 03/02/2017 21:45

Oh well now, yes please. Manufacturing 17 million odd of those will be a good boost to the economy.

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Kaija · 03/02/2017 21:46

Yes, quite, and still immensely cheaper than leaving.

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SemiPermanent · 03/02/2017 21:47

^Is that the sound of a cage rattling already? It didn't take long did it?!

Mention MPs who have a problem with women and have done things to actively scupper bills about domestic violence and you get someone turn up who is drawn to particular threads and talks about how men don't get equality over domestic abuse.

Odd eh?^

Where has anyone said about men not getting equality over domestic abuse?
Confused

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TheElementsSong · 03/02/2017 21:48

would that be a star shaped medal then kaija

I can't quite decide. Is this meant to equate making a list of MPs with unpleasant opinions with Nazi oppression? Or is it meant as a defence of aforementioned unpleasant opinions as, um, not unpleasant? Or something else?

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HashiAsLarry · 03/02/2017 21:48

And would prop up our steel industry or we'd just import it from somewhere else cheaper like normal

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woman12345 · 03/02/2017 21:48

Woo hoo! Way to go Madame Defarge!
I love the smell of skewered sexists in the morning!

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woman12345 · 03/02/2017 21:50

Anti semitism is tracked by organisations bigger than MN.

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HashiAsLarry · 03/02/2017 21:51

Mega Blush time.

Just caught my previous message and it looks like I've said braver souls have thrown shoes at my MP. I mean braver souls have tried explaining things like blue passports to him.

Eek.

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Peregrina · 03/02/2017 21:51

Medals to prop up the steel industry? No, they would be plastic, painted to look like metal and made in China. But that's OK because we want trade deals with China.

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RedToothBrush · 03/02/2017 21:53

You mean this MPPig Andrew Rosindell?

//www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/23/andrew-rosindell-rachel-reeves-pregnant-minister_n_6735106.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mother-tongue/11431608/Rachel-Reeves-Tory-MP-a-dinosaur-saying-mums-cant-handle-top-jobs.html

Even Louise Mensch - scourge of Labour on Twitter - tweeted: "Andrew Rosindell MP stop being an idiot. Thatcher had two children. Grow up."

snigger

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Kaija · 03/02/2017 21:55

"
I can't quite decide. Is this meant to equate making a list of MPs with unpleasant opinions with Nazi oppression? Or is it meant as a defence of aforementioned unpleasant opinions as, um, not unpleasant? Or something else?"

I thought this too but actually I think it was in reference to my earlier post about giving out blue passports and medals to bring back the feeling of sovereignty.

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BigChocFrenzy · 03/02/2017 21:57

China looking to gain influence in nations wanting to counter the fascist Putin-Trump axis

Thoughtful & well-received speech from the Chinese leader at the UN:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/03/donald-trump-making-china-great-again-xi-jinping

Trump may permanently drive away former allies and damage US influence:
The POTUS after him may find that the EU and countries like Australia are no longer US allies, but more neutral.

I'm a floating centrist and pre-Trump, I'd have run a mile from China.
However, I'd choose to ally with China as much the lesser evil, if the alternative is surrendering to the fascism of Trump and / or Putin.

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RedToothBrush · 03/02/2017 21:58

Semi, they haven't said it here, don't worry.

This Andrew Rosindell?

www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/tory-mp-andrew-rosindell-forwards-motion-for-the-bbc-to-play-the-national-anthem-every-day-to-honour-a7394891.html
Jingoistic Tory MP forwards motion for the BBC to play the national anthem every day to honour Brexit

Good idea Andrew.

Geez. Is this a step up from blue passports and the crown on pint glasses?

Sometimes I think my Tory PM is shit. Then you guys remind me of just how much worse it could be. He is liberal in comparison.

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HashiAsLarry · 03/02/2017 21:59

That's him red

In real life he's apparently far far worse but I have only ten or so anecdotal accounts of that.

kaija I'm pretty sure Godwin's law was just invoked through some desperate clawing. Good point peregrina, I was overly optimistic there.

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woman12345 · 03/02/2017 22:00

Contestent Number 2:
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/feb/02/is-philip-davies-fit-to-be-an-mp
What is most concerning about this elected MP’s behaviour is how closely it mimics that of misogynistic online trolls. Like them, Davies is not interested in debate. Instead of joining a conversation and voicing his view, he would prefer to prevent the discussion from taking place at all. He made that clear when filibustering another bill, which would have seen children given first aid training in schools, saying: “Why on earth would I allow a bill the principle of which I don’t like a second reading?” He also mimics online trolls in his use of questionable facts and statistics.
Using the technique of Gish gallop:
rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

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boredofbrexit · 03/02/2017 22:02

Best add what was it? almost 16 million crystal balls to the order then for in snowflake city everyones a winner

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woman12345 · 03/02/2017 22:08

The Gish Gallop (also known as proof by verbosity[1] and the Trump Tirade[2]) is the fallacious debate tactic of drowning your opponent in a flood of individually-weak arguments in order to prevent rebuttal of the whole argument collection without great effort. The Gish Gallop is a belt-fed version of the on the spot fallacy, as it's unreasonable for anyone to have a well-composed answer immediately available to every argument present in the Gallop. The Gish Gallop is named after creationist Duane Gish, who often abused it.
Although it takes a trivial amount of effort on the Galloper's part to make each individual point before skipping on to the next (especially if they cite from a pre-concocted list of Gallop arguments), a refutation of the same Gallop may likely take much longer and require significantly more effort (per the basic principle that it's always easier to make a mess than to clean it back up again).
The tedium inherent in untangling a Gish Gallop typically allows for very little "creative license" or vivid rhetoric (in deliberate contrast to the exciting point-dashing central to the Galloping), which in turn risks boring the audience or readers, further loosening the refuter's grip on the crowd.
This is especially true in that the Galloper need only win a single one out of all his component arguments in order to be able to cast doubt on the entire refutation attempt. For this reason, the refuter must achieve a 100% success ratio (with all the yawn-inducing elaboration that goes with such precision). Thus, Gish Galloping is frequently employed (with particularly devastating results) in timed debates. The same is true for any time- or character-limited debate medium, including Twitter and newspaper editorials.
Examples of Gish Gallops are commonly found online, in crank "list" articles that claim to show "X hundred reasons for (or against) Y". At the highest levels of verbosity, with dozens upon dozens or even hundreds of minor arguments interlocking, each individual "reason" is — upon closer inspection — likely to consist of a few sentences at best.
Gish Gallops are almost always performed with numerous other logical fallacies baked in. The myriad of component arguments constituting the Gallop may typically intersperse a few perfectly uncontroversial claims — the basic validity of which are intended to lend undue credence to the Gallop at large — with a devious hodgepodge of half-truths, outright lies, red herrings and straw men — which, if not rebutted as the fallacies they are, pile up into egregious problems for the refuter.
There may also be escape hatches or "gotcha" arguments present in the Gallop, which are — like the Gish Gallop itself — specifically designed to be brief to pose, yet take a long time to unravel and refute.

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Headfullofdreams · 03/02/2017 22:09
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HashiAsLarry · 03/02/2017 22:10

I'd rather be something beautiful and powerful like a snowflake than a fascist #proud

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RedToothBrush · 03/02/2017 22:15

This Andrew Rosindell?

Andrew Rosindell joined Philip Davies and Christopher Chope in repeatedly blocking a backbench Bill banning the use of wild animals in circuses from progressing through Parliament, finally blocking it by lodging an objection in March 2015. The bill had the support of the Coalition government, the Labour opposition and public opinion. Rosindell had earlier argued the circus is a "Great British institution…[that] deserves to be defended against the propaganda and exaggerations".

In June 2012, Rosindell was criticised for expressing "huge admiration" for former Chilean President Augusto Pinochet

He made the national headlines in September 2014 when his campaign vehicle was photographed whilst illegally parked in a disabled parking space in Central London.

At the beginning of the MPs expenses scandal The Daily Telegraph reported that Rosindell "claimed more than £125,000 in second home expenses for a flat in London, while designating his childhood home 17 miles away – where his mother lived – as his main address" and between "2006 and 2008 claimed the maximum £400 a month for food".

In 2010, the BBC accused Rosindell of breaching Parliamentary rules by accepting subsidised overseas trips to Gibraltar and subsequently raising multiple Gibraltar-related issues in Parliament without disclosing the trips in the Register of Members' Interests. The journalist Simon Heffer dubbed him the 'King of subsidised jaunts' for sitting on "90 groups concerned with overseas locations or causes

Rosindell's political views are firmly right-wing: he is a Eurosceptic and supports the re-introduction of the death penalty and the detention of asylum seekers.

He is the international director of the European Foundation, chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Flags & Heraldry Committee, UK's All-Party Parliamentary Group on the British Overseas Territories and member of the Flag Institute.

FUN WITH FLAGS!

Oh and he's a member of The Freedom Association.

I think most of us will know it better as 'The Swivel Eyed Loon Club'.

Bet you £448,975,954,557,056,752 he's not on Bank's Swamp List.

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BigChocFrenzy · 03/02/2017 22:17

Well, those 2 MPs may genuinely believe in protecting the right to commit domestic violence or "honour" killings.

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