The Brexit Arms - All welcome. :-) :-)

[surferjet]

So .....how are we all this evening?

Hang on. Isn't the one of the first duties of the UK government to protect the rights of UK citizens? Given their is an albeit small chance the EU will screw over our citizens living there we have to make sure we protect them. The only way we can do this is to negotiate equality of rights for them alongside the EU nationals here.

What rights are we even talking about because EU nationals have all sorts of rights here from health to education etc and it will almost by necessity need to be dealt with via EU cooperation. It might actually be physically impossible for EU nationals to have the same rights as they do now when we leave.

No, I don't want to bring a moral dimension into it. It is about causality. The only way rights can be guaranteed is by staying in the EU. ^^

Oh I see Cecile - you mean not just the 3 million non UK EU residents in the UK but the other 500 million as well.

The Plan is out

semi Bored thirty years of more or less daily gym /yoga:/Pilates

Isn't the one of the first duties of the UK government to protect the rights of UK citizens?

Actually I think this is a very good point and I'm going to climb onto the fence now. It's easy to get all reasonable about it all but one needs to remember that we don't know if the EU will be

Shove up Infinite

Cecile My reference to information the government have which we don't was really about the stance the EU is going to take to negotiations and whether they are going for a mutually beneficial Brexit or a punishment Brexit.

Its already been dissed on the other thread. 'Skim read'. So all that 'what is the plan' and when they get one they ignore it.
What does that remind me of now......?

I can't seem to find the economic impact assessment setting out the costs and benefits to 'stakeholders' vis, the great British public, 'business' and the treasury.

I'm so used to seeing one - even though it's usually statistically vacuous and cobbled together - but where is it this time? Is it a separate document somewhere? Shurely there is one.

And LOL at the usual nonsense in the section on workers rights. Blah blah better rights already under UK law blah.

Errr this is the government that yesterday released its long awaited (farcical) review into employment tribunal fees.

There has been a 77% collapse in the number if tribunal claims to enforce 'worker rights' since fees were introduced by this government in 2013. No worries, they say.

Many of the rights that are so much better than the EU equivalent - actually cost more in mandatory fees to the treasury than the maximum value of the claim.

If you don't like workers rights, you can either repeal them (big political storm) or you can satisfy the gullible by introducing fees that are so high that nobody can afford to enforce them.

Job done.

Try reading it - there is still no plan.

There needed to be a collapse in the number of tribunal cases it was getting farcical. We had workers rights before the EU and we will have them after move on please

infinite let's wait and see what the Supreme Court has to say next month.

The only way rights can be guaranteed is by staying in the EU. ^^

And now you've lost my interest.

Haha!

order-order.com/2017/02/02/diane-abbotts-westminster-hall-debate-hours-brexit-vote/

and here's another one
order-order.com/2017/02/02/diane-abbotts-westminster-hall-debate-hours-brexit-vote/

Try reading it - there is still no plan.

What did you actually expect?!

Seriously - negotiations have not begun.
There can only be a 'wish list' - the EU & UK have to negotiate a fucking plan.

Is it really so hard to grasp?

The plan is: leave the EU.
Complete FOM is not wanted. (Good).
Therefore a compromise over the single market etc has to be reached.

That's the only possible form of plan you can have at this stage,

No. sorry, I'm going to set things out step by step again to avoid opacity:

1. we are talking about rights like the right to reside, to cross internal borders, to work in any EU Member State or to get healthcare.
2. those rights belong to U.K. And rEU nationals throughout the EU because of the EU and EU law (because the rights come from EU law).
3. if things stay as they are, those rights remain undisturbed and so they are guaranteed.
4. if we leave the EU, they could remain undisturbed because both the UK and the EU make new reciprocal guarantees. However, if the negotiations take a different turn, one group or the other - could be the EU citizens in the U.K., could be the UK nationals abroad - could lose their rights. So those rights are not, at the moment, guaranteed if we leave.

Sorry, please bear with me. I am a bore in the corner with a Diet Coke but I honestly want to discuss this aspect of Brexit.

Are remoaners still asking about a plan? What does that even mean, we send in the army and dictate term of the EUs surrender? lol we have to fecking negotiate the terms of Brexit. Any economic impact assessment would be as useful as my story of alien abduction and anal probing.

Please take a moment:

twitter.com/hashtag/prayfordiane?src=hash

1) we are talking about rights like the right to reside

Is this current right to reside contingent on being in employment?

With you so far Cecile, carry on.

Have a packet of cheese n' onion

That wasn't supposed to sound sarcastic Cecile

White paper pubilshed today www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/588948/The_United_Kingdoms_exit_from_and_partnership_with_the_EU_Web.pdf

Thanks, Wrong :)

My point is that as it is the UK's actions which have made the rights precarious, it is for us to make the first move. And as a matter of causation, I would argue that the only way to ensure the rights stay guaranteed to all is to remain. The interesting discussion is whether it is worth doing something which will put the rights at risk, what the rights should be risked in exchange for, and so on.

CdV
I am interested why you have not raised the same questions on the other thread, who by their own estimation are better informed than we fuckwits in the pub.
I am also always a bit put off by someone who 'honestly' wants to discuss something.
Ergo, I shall pass on this.

it is the UK's actions which have made the rights precarious, it is for us to make the first move

That's how democracy works, you could just as easily argue that it was the EUs actions that pushed us into leaving so it should be the EU that makes the move. Or that going to live in a country where you are not a citizen makes your rights precarious.

Every time the ECJ passes a law it takes rights away from me but their was no provision that I would be protected from Brussels dictates. Its not a good argument to use for us to give EU residents rights without equality for UK citizens.