The Brexit Arms - All welcome. :-) :-)

[surferjet]

So .....how are we all this evening?

Re the link above - Tate and Lyle Sugars will do well outside the EU because as a company it imports and refines cane sugar, and the EU supports the growing and refining of sugar beet. The EU has supported sugar cane imports from less developed nations by setting tariffs and quotas on imports from developed nations / big cane producers such as Australia, Brazil and Thailand.

It's a specific case rather than one that is applicable across all industries, and is why Tate and Lyle Sugars strongly campaigned for Leave.

Bored, I never saw the actual last spat - however she was hounded and goaded by a PBP called small fox , aka Darth then, we never saw her again.

it is emotional roller coaster The eyes on your trump link semi are so creepy!

There were two others involved, still here. From letter page, telegraph:

Awesome grouse Informal

A very long time ago I cleaned the telephones at the Tate & Lyle factory so pleased to be on their side.

"... somewhere in the Hitchhiker’s Guide series Mr. Adams told the story of the The Golgafrinchans, a race of people who sent their Telephone Sanitizer population away. The Sanitizers were sent along with another third of the planet’s population who were also deemed useless to form a colony on a remote planet (Earth as it happens). Of course, the remaining Golgafrinchan population was then wiped out by a virulent disease contracted via unsanitary telephones..."

collateraldamage.wordpress.com/2006/05/02/douglas-adams-right-again-lack-of-phone-sanitizers-will-doom-planet/

Banning people you deem unworthy is seldom a good idea.

I'm on the fence about guaranteeing EU Nationals it should be obvious that our intention and desire is to do just that but as in any negotiation you shouldn't just give up something that needs a recriprocal agreement.

I can see the logic in take the high ground now and hope that sets a good pattern though. I think the vocal moaning minority will just find another issue and create.

Nothing the Leave campaign, any Leaver I have heard speak or our current Leave orientated government has said gives any credence to the Remains belief that we are all out to expel every EU National it's just grandstanding histrionics from spoilt snowflakes who still can't believe they lost the Referendum.

I agree Infinite, which is why I'd like to see the balloon deflated (not popped, just deflated in a very matter of fact way) - in a perverse way I'd be intrigued to see what the next hysteria-totem would be!

On the matter of EU nationals, can I please put forward an alternative point of view?

So 1) the framework of EU law already supports the rights of all EU citizens throughout the EU, including U.K. Citizens in the EU and EU nationals in the U.K.
2) the UK gives the notification under Article 50, a unilateral move made in a situation in which the government has explicitly said it will use the rights of EU nationals as a bargaining chip;
3) so the UK's unilateral decision to withdraw from the EU, a system which guarantees rights to all its citizens, followed by a refusal to guarantee said rights, should be met by a unilateral concession from the EU in which it guarantees the rights of Uk citizens, rights which the UK government has unilaterally classed as bargaining chips.
Please poke holes in this reasoning for me?

I agree Semi but I think politically TM has been very smart in putting up lots of easy wins for the remainers in her party like the White Paper and this hopefully - gives them the opportunity to come onside while gradually backtracking on the hysteria.

BoE upped growth forecasts for 2017, 2018 and 2019. Also now predicting a slightly shorter term inflation spike.

lot of unilaterals in there CdV.
or is that because negotiations haven't commenced?

Sorry Cecile but stage 3 made no sense what was your point ? That we should or shouldn't guarantee the rights? As far as I'm aware we fully intend to and have never said otherwise or was that your point?

Cecile Please can you clarify? Are you suggesting that the EU should guarantee the rights of UK nationals in the EU before the UK guarantees those of EU nationals in the UK?

Semi we are going to be in for a long haul of hysteria totems.

Frank Field (one of my oracles of EU Wisdom) said this government needs to get together as it did at the time of war, it needs to get together and get us the best deal. That means all politicians getting behind Brexit.

I am also struggling to understand point 3.

I think we should guarantee them immediately, because it is our actions which have made them insecure, while the rest of the EU has guaranteed them from day one just by existing.

The repetition of unilateral was for clarity and emphasis.

Well our actions have made them possibly feel insecure but every subsequent action and indeed good old fashioned common sense means those rights will be guaranteed. It's all a bit yah boo sucks for me.

Cecile I think I understand. You are saying that everyone had these rights. Then the UK unilaterally decided to leave the EU and so throw these rights into uncertainty. So the UK should unilaterally guarantee the rights of EU nationals in the UK, as these are the only ones under it's control.

Is that what you mean?

If so in general terms I agree with you. It is what I would like to see but with the corollary that I am not involved in the negotiations and don't have all the information that the government does. So whilst I would like to see this happen and think it would be a very positive and conciliatory step (as well as removing actual uncertainty for people effected) I wouldn't go so far as to criticise the government if they don't go down this route, as they may well have very good reasons.

Of course the ideal scenario (in my view)would be if both the UK and EU guaranteed all these rights now. Hopefully people are lobbying the EU on this very point although I haven't heard this discussed anywhere.

Thanks WrongTrouser, I think you've understood my reasoning. I'm just really not sure what information the government could have which would mean that they couldn't unilaterally guarantee the rights. In fact if they don't, they are signing up to the massive (and unfrasible with current staffing and resources) task of deciding who stays and who goes. I have a horrible feeling that the piece of information they have and don't want to tell anyone is that there aren't really any other bargaining chips. Please do tell me if I'm being unimaginative though, I would honestly be glad to hear it!

I think we should guarantee them immediately,
So, agreeing with me & the other posters.

because it is our actions which have made them insecure,
How?
They still retain their rights as EU citizens at this time & TM explicitly stated that she had already offered this up to the EU27 (that we would guarantee their rights here); it is the EU27 that refuse to give clarity on the matter.

while the rest of the EU has guaranteed them from day one just by existing.
Not sure of what this actually means, other than (again) clarifying what we already know - that EU citizens here continue to retain their rights as an EU citizen.

Sorry Cecile, didn't see your last post.

I don't think they're 'bargaining chips' as such - it's more that TM has said that she is unwilling to guarantee EU (in UK) citizen rights until the EU guarantees the same in return (UK citizens in EU).

She said explicitly that she'd already offered this, most of EU27 were happy to agree, but a couple of countries were not, therefore EU27 couldn't commit, therefore TM won't commit.

So we are all singing from the same hymn sheet? We'd like the rights guaranteed and generally think it could be good to do that first as a peace offering/set negotiations off on positive terms BUT we are also aware That UK citizens resident in the EU may need the protection of holding back til the agreement is reciprocal. Cecile thinks we've behaved badly so our citizens have lost the right to protection and EU citizens haven't so should be treated better thus having their rights granted early on negotiations not used as a bargaining tool. Honestly I'm still on the fence picking splinters out of my very pert derrière. (And aware that UK citizens are currently still EU citizens )

Lots of crossposting I'd forgotten TM had tried to do this already and been rebuffed so I'm off the fence and firmly behind her plan.

very pert derrière

Am well jel Infinite!

Give us a wiggle infinite!